[mgarblik]

For the past 30+ years we have taught our students to try and council customers concerning cranking batteries on a cost-per-month basis. You may be surprised to find this is more accurate than having a "favorite brand" of battery. Currently, a typical cranking battery cost $1.25-1.30 per month to own and keep your car starting. Calculating this way takes the emotion out of it and you can pick a battery that fits your needs. Will some odd battery of some brand last 12 years? Sure! And another identical one will last 16 months. Similar to a light bulb. I buy all my batteries from a single source, (NAPA), not because the batteries are better, the PEOPLE are better. They will replace and warranty anything I take back as defective within the service limits, no receipt, no questions, no lip.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

I think the biggest reason batteries don't seem to last so long is cost. It's cheaper for the manufacturer to make a lesser quality battery and charge just as much for it (or more) as they used to. What are you going to do when it dies? Not buy another? The other problem is our anecdotes from 15-20 years ago aren't necessarily applicable to a battery you'll buy today. Anyone who has bought batteries for a few decades has noticed the cost increase and lifetime issues have gotten worse in the last 10 years. We won't know the result of any cheapening in the manufacturing process until a few years down the road.

My 2014 Cadillac ATS still has it's OE battery. The 2021's are our, so the one in my ATS is nearly 8 years old. It was just tested when I had it in to my local Caddy dealership and is still in excellent condition. And the ATS has lots of electronics built in to it....

My 2014 Sonic still had the OE battery when I traded the car in to buy my 2019 Sonic a year and a half ago.

Quality batteries still exist.

[Chief of the 60's]

I never seen a battery melt from heat, seen many frozen from cold.

But then, I'm a parts installer, not a parts pusher.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I never seen a battery melt from heat, seen many frozen from cold.

But then, I'm an installer, not a parts pusher.

They freeze when they're discharged, I've never seen a charged battery freeze. My father which was also a mechanic taught me that, and ever since he told it to me I've checked his theory. Anytime I've found a frozen battery, it was also discharged previous to freezing.

I've worked on construction equipment in the winter in Bradford PA, sometimes it has the coldest temperatures in the US, never had any charged batteries freeze in that harsh cold.

Usually when they freeze, the end is near, if they can be brought back after freezing, they usually don't last very long.

My parents have lived the Phoenix area in AZ for 40 years, They've replaced batteries probably at the same rate that they did in Erie PA. My parents have told me when their batteries have failed in their cars, and I haven't noticed a pattern that they lived a shorter life in the hell of Phoenix, (not a fan of hot, dry weather, or climate).

My mother had a AAA battery installed in her GP shortly before she quit driving nearly 3 years ago, I have the car now, and the battery is fine so far. I've had relatives living in Phoenix since 1960, and have never heard from them that car batteries expire more quickly in that heat.

It used to be that most Delco batteries that came as OEM in GM cars lasted longer than the aftermarket ones did by a fair margin. I have no idea who made, or makes Delco, nor if the newer ones last as long as the older ones did, since I've been away from full time wrenching since 2005. It wasn't uncommon for the OEM Delco to last 6-7 years, some didn't make it that far, but many did.

Back many, many, years ago, my father bought a Sears Allstate battery, he said it was the cheapest that they sold, like 8 dollars at the time. He had it in 2 of his own cars, and it lasted 13 years, they don't make 'em like they used to.

Someone previously mentioned Odyssey US made batteries, so I looked them up. It seems they're made in CA (hard to believe since CA is so strict on environmental heavy metals, and carcinogens). They're pretty proud of their technology at just under $300 per battery, probably not going to be purchasing any of their products in the near future.

Having also worked on many rental, as well as customer owned battery powered lift trucks, and aerial lift equipment, I have replaced a ton of batteries in them. No matter what brand they have in them, they rarely last longer than 3-4 years. The thing that kills them quickest is extreme discharging, running them until they quit moving. Many of the newer electronic controlled units won't let the customer/owner run them until they are completely flat. It shuts the machine down before the battery is completely discharged. Running them that low also burns the brushes out of the drive motors quickly.

Also low water in the batteries kills them quickly. Don't add water to a flat battery before charging it unless it's below the plates, then just cover the plates, don't fill it any further when discharged. The water level rises when the battery is charged.

Many people never bother to pop off the caps on their maintenance free batteries any longer, and they do lose water over time. I've sometimes been able to extend their life just by adding water to keep the plates covered when a battery acts as though it's going south, if you can catch it in time. On my own stuff I try to look at battery water every 6 months, or so.

Just my observations........

[tigergto]

I read somewhere,can’t remember where, that it would have to be near -50% for a fully charged battery to freeze.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I never seen a battery melt from heat, seen many frozen from cold..

Dead batteries do freeze.

Dead batteries don't melt.

But the discussion is about charged batteries. They don't freeze or melt.

From Consumer Reports:

Summer heat is tougher on car batteries than winter’s chill. It may seem counterintuitive, but higher temperatures have a greater impact on the power-generating chemistry inside.

And it’s not just about air temperature. Hot summer temps drive up the heat under the hood and accelerate the onset of battery failure. As a result, many motorists wind up stuck along the roadside in the summer. AAA reports that it responded to 1.8 million battery-related service calls in the summer of 2018.

“Routine inspection is as important for the battery as it is for the rest of the car,” says John Banta, Consumer Reports’ lead battery tester.

To avoid being stranded, owners should be proactive about servicing and replacing their car’s battery, Banta says.

Car batteries typically last from three to five years, according to AAA, spanning from 58 months or more in the furthest northern regions of the U.S., down to less than 41 months in the most southern regions. Inspections should be part of an owner’s routine maintenance, but it is especially important to check before taking a long road trip.

And as to the next part....

But then, I'm an installer, not a parts pusher.

Almost anyone can install a battery, but that doesn't mean they know the science behind how a battery operates. It appears AAA understands that batteries die 30% sooner in the heat (41 months down south vs 58 in the northern climates).

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by The Champ

My 2014 Cadillac ATS still has it's OE battery. The 2021's are our, so the one in my ATS is nearly 8 years old. It was just tested when I had it in to my local Caddy dealership and is still in excellent condition. And the ATS has lots of electronics built in to it....

My 2014 Sonic still had the OE battery when I traded the car in to buy my 2019 Sonic a year and a half ago.

Quality batteries still exist.

..........and yet last week I had a Cadillac SRX, 2017 with a battery dead as a door nail out of nowhere. Would not crank the car and had 7.9 volts. Car had 41K on the clock. It just happens. My wifes 2011 Grand Cherokee has the OE battery in it still. Although I noticed slightly slower cranking the last couple months. Want a quality battery? I would choose one with the longest stated months of warranty. They typically have the most active material, (more plates), in the case. The Rural King $59.00 battery has much less active material in it than the same case size $120.00 battery no matter who makes it. Since Consumer Reports was quoted, when they test batteries, it's rare that one brand scores best in multiple case sizes. The brand results vary widely with case size. That's why I recommend a more consistent way to buy good batteries.

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by The Champ

My 2014 Cadillac ATS still has it's OE battery. The 2021's are our, so the one in my ATS is nearly 8 years old. It was just tested when I had it in to my local Caddy dealership and is still in excellent condition. And the ATS has lots of electronics built in to it....

My 2014 Sonic still had the OE battery when I traded the car in to buy my 2019 Sonic a year and a half ago.

Quality batteries still exist.

I replaced the original Motorcraft battery in out 12 Mustang this year. It doesn't get driven but 4-500 miles a year, but it's always on a battery tender when it's not.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

..........and yet last week I had a Cadillac SRX, 2017 with a battery dead as a door nail out of nowhere.

I guess I'm just absolutely the luckiest guy on the planet...

My OE batteries on my GM new car purchases just last and last and last...

My first new car, a 1976 Ventura, had the OE battery in it the entire time I owned it (only 5 years). My 1979 Grand LeMans OE battery lasted 9 years and 190,000 miles . I already commented on my 1998 GP, 2006 Torrent, 2014 ATS and 2014 Sonic. I have a tendency to keep my vehicles a long time.

The gap from 1979 to 1998 - I only purchased 1 new car and it wasn't a GM product (big mistake - most trouble prone car I ever owned) - I can't remember how long the OE battery lasted in that one. If it lasted a long time it's one of the few parts that did.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by tigergto

I read somewhere,can’t remember where, that it would have to be near -50% for a fully charged battery to freeze.

I think you mean minus 50 deg C.

In reality, it generally needs to be even colder than that if it is "fully" charged.

Some useful info here:

https://mathscinotes.wordpress.com/2...freezing-math/

Lots of other scientific stuff available on line if you want to look for it.

Saying you've seen a battery freeze without indicating the state of charge is not useful.

Saying you've never seen one melt without indicating an associated temp is also not useful. And in any event, battery failure due to heat has nothing to do with the case melting as might happen if you allow the case to rest on your exhaust manifold.

As Champ points out, in discussing battery life we are generally talking about batteries that are charged well enough to crank an engine in good repair at normally encountered ambient temps and underhood temps. You can understand the science involved to conclude why heat is generally the more limiting factor for battery life or believe your own anecdotal evidence.

[SRR]

I haven't seen any "melted" batteries but I have seen ones with bowed cases and evidence of boil over. Plus they usually stink of sulfur.

[tigergto]

Originally Posted by John V.

I think you mean minus 50 deg C.

I.

No, I mean minus 50 deg F. I’m just stating what I read. Not looking for a debate.
Minus 50 deg C = minus 58 deg F, so we’re on the same page.

[Pecosbill]

Originally Posted by necdb3

I remember those. My Uncle put them in a 73 f350 super camper special that had 2 batteries. They did fail quite often so he loved the warranty but ultimately Firestone took over the warranty and you only got 1 replacement after that. I remember he was PO'd because firestone reneged on it.

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Best battery ever

I bought one of those batteries from JCP in 1977. Still have the car and am now on my 12 battery from them. Yes, Firestone did take over the warranty application, but they have never failed to replace the battery for me. You need to have the original receipt though, plus there is a sticker that they put on the battery denoting it as a replacement for the JCP battery, since the battery Firestone gives you as a replacement is an Interstate or whatever brand they are then carrying. They no longer have the stickers, so whenever you turn in a dead battery you need to remove the sticker and put it on your new battery.

The last time I went in for a battery no one in the store knew what I was talking about, as they had all been born well since the days of JCP batteries. They weren’t snotty or anything, they just had never heard of the JCP battery warranty being taken over by Firestone. I had to insist that they call someone at a higher level, and when they did they were instructed how to proceed.

With JCP now in bankruptcy, the long line of “free” batteries for my 64 may be coming to an end. But however you slice it, that was the very best $55 I ever spent, although I do feel that I had some small part in that bankruptcy.

[necdb3]

Pecosbill, That's odd that they did that. He always had the receipt yet they told him when Firestone took over, it was for a one time free replacement. My uncle got rid of the truck in the late 80's and didn't care obviously after that.

[Pecosbill]

Originally Posted by necdb3

Pecosbill, That's odd that they did that. He always had the receipt yet they told him when Firestone took over, it was for a one time free replacement. My uncle got rid of the truck in the late 80's and didn't care obviously after that.

I’m no lawyer, but I think one would tell you that just because JCP contracted their warranty work to Firestone, that in no way impacts negatively the rights of a consumer who has a warranty from JCP. As long as JCP exists they have an obligation to honor their warranties, regardless of who is actually doing the work. Your uncle got snookered.

They did try to buy me out about 25 years ago. They offered m $120. I asked if that was $120 AND an new battery and they said, no, it was just for the money. I told them “no” and that I would “see them again in a couple of years.”

[John V.]

Bill, JC Penney exited the Automotive biz in 1983, they sold their Auto Care Centers at that time to Firestone.

Normally, in a sale of a business like that, all liabilities such as warranties transfer to the new owner.

So unless Firestone specifically excluded the Forever Battery warranty liability from the transaction, JC Penney likely has had nothing to do with the warranty expense of battery replacement.

That expense would fall entirely on Firestone. And I’m sure such a negligible expense today that Firestone would hardly notice it.

You’d have to obtain a copy of the terms of the 1983 transaction to see if the battery warranty was excluded. I doubt it because it would make no sense to me for Firestone to be involved in the battery replacement on behalf of JC Penney.

And the only way for Firestone to get off the hook is for them to sell the liability to someone else or go belly up themselves.

Not to say that Firestone service managers by design or by ignorance couldn’t try convince a customer that the warranty has ended.

[389]

I buy the cheapest battery I can find and I always get 5-7 years out of them.. I put Capacitors in all my cars..

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by 389

I buy the cheapest battery I can find and I always get 5-7 years out of them.. I put Capacitors in all my cars..

What does a capacitor do with regards to a battery?

[Pecosbill]

Originally Posted by John V.

Bill, JC Penney exited the Automotive biz in 1983, they sold their Auto Care Centers at that time to Firestone.

Normally, in a sale of a business like that, all liabilities such as warranties transfer to the new owner.

So unless Firestone specifically excluded the Forever Battery warranty liability from the transaction, JC Penney likely has had nothing to do with the warranty expense of battery replacement.

That expense would fall entirely on Firestone. And I’m sure such a negligible expense today that Firestone would hardly notice it.

You’d have to obtain a copy of the terms of the 1983 transaction to see if the battery warranty was excluded. I doubt it because it would make no sense to me for Firestone to be involved in the battery replacement on behalf of JC Penney.

And the only way for Firestone to get off the hook is for them to sell the liability to someone else or go belly up themselves.

Not to say that Firestone service managers by design or by ignorance couldn’t try convince a customer that the warranty has ended.

John, I would pretty much agree with you. There is no way for one entity to abrogate the terms of a warranty unilaterally unless the counterparty, in this case the consumer, agrees. As long as JCP exists as a going concern their liability under this warranty exists, whether they “sell” that liability to another company or not.

Let’s say I have a home holding company and the remodeling division of my company has a contract to do a bathroom remodel job for you. We warranty our work for three years. Soon after completing the work we sell the remodel division of our company to Ajax Builders. Your whirlpool tub then starts leaking. You call us. We refer you to Ajax. The Ajax rep tells you that they are no longer doing warranty work for free for jobs done by my company. What do you do?

You call me back, of course. You have a contract with my company. I am liable unless the terms of the sale included Ajax being liable for all warranty claims.

Now, let’s say instead of selling my remodel division, I sell the entire company to Ajax. Your recourse is to Ajax at that point, because they can only purchase the company if they assume all their liabilities. Ajax must do the warranty work for you.

A third option is that instead of selling the company to Ajax I declared a corporate bankruptcy. In the bankruptcy court Ajax purchases the assets of my bankrupt company . The court will try to get them to assume as much of the liabilities as possible, including liabilities for warranty work. Ajax may refuse and all the other bidders may also refuse. In that case the bankruptcy court may approve the sale of the company to Ajax with them having no further liability under the warranties. You, as a warranty owner, are just out of luck at that point.

My point is that for this liability to vanish, whichever entity is now contractually liable for it, be it JCP or Firestone (depending on the terms of the sale of the auto division), there would have to be either a bankruptcy or an agreement with all of the consumers. I suspect that that is why JCP was trying to offer me a buyout to try to reduce their liability and therefore make the purchase of the auto unit more appealing to Firestone. .

[necdb3]

Pecosbill, I understand what you're saying and it logically makes sense but that isn't how it always works. I bought a "Husky" from home depot, tape measure because it had a lifetime warranty. They replaced it a few times under warranty but then Home Depot decided to stop selling them as the failure rate was too high. When it came time to replace my Husky tape measure again, they told me to pick out another brand as a 1 time replacement. None of the other brands have a lifetime warranty. It didn't matter who I spoke to from Home Depot, even corporate, the answer was the same. My Uncle's experience with the JCP battery was the same.