[Skip Fix]

"the cam would have been running on a 114 ICL and the engine wouldn't perform like it should, "

Maybe, maybe not . When I was racing in NMCA Top Stock with my RAIV 400 the shallow 72cc open chambers made V-P close so the 304/312 on a 112 LS UD cam I retarded to get a little more clearance. Ran OK. Decided what the heck we'll run 0.040 intake clearance to see if it picked up. Ran to the .010 the same! But the motor still had the big tube headers on that were not scavenging as good as when I swapped to smaller headers. So that was affecting it-so not the perfect combination. Eventually swapped in a "reverse split" cam that motor liked even better.

[Formulajones]

In a build like this, retarding the cam that far is really not what we want. Not to mention I don't believe it's how Harold designed these lobes to run. They actually like more advance than what the cam card suggests.

Paul can explain it better, but the idea of moving the cam forward and having the intake lobe higher during overlap is to allow hot gasses to escape before the compression stroke, which helps with detonation. Since this is a pump gas engine with iron heads and 9.98:1 compression I wanted to follow this theory to the letter. It worked very well on my stock RAIII engine.
Plus these lobes from Paul's experience, already carry the power out petty far and don't fall off much in the upper rpm range, even with the cams moved forward this far. It'll hit the dyno soon and we'll see

[Skip Fix]

I agree my combination with the bigger headers made 4 different cams at different ICL and LS all run almost the same until the header change. Those round port exhaust ports flow almost as good backwards for reversion issues. I think when we tore it down they flowed 85% of the same flow backwards!

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Actually it was off more than I posted.

At dot to dot I should have had a 108 ICL, as that's where the cam is ground at according to the cam card. But it had 114 ICL!!!

Crazy what you find with these things sometimes.

So I decided to make a big change from the start and moved it 2 keyways for 4 degrees advance. It came in at 106.25 ICL. Technically it should have read 104 ICL according to the cam card so even that setting wasn't what you would have expected, but 106 was actually what we wanted and gave the valve events I was looking for so called it done right there. Technically speaking the 4 degrees I moved it should have shown a 4 degree change on my wheel at 110 ICL but it was 106.25, so that change moved the cam 7.75 degrees!! So one of the keyways is way off retarding the camshaft, and I had to move it way advanced just to get a 106.25 ICL.

If this thing wasn't checked and just tossed together dot to dot, the cam would have been running on a 114 ICL and the engine wouldn't perform like it should, and make most of it's power up high where no one wants to spin one of these things, lol.

Actually, the T-set was really close. since the cam is half the speed of the crank, but the degree wheel is on the crank, 4° at the cam, will be seen as 8° at the crank.

[Formulajones]

Short block is done. 25 ft lbs. for continuous rotational torque, with small ring pack, standard tension rings, and BOP rear main seal installed, timing set, and camshaft.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Short block is done. 25 ft lbs. for continuous rotational torque, with small ring pack, standard tension rings, and BOP rear main seal installed, timing set, and camshaft.

What torque is too high?

[Formulajones]

I've never had one higher than about 35, when using things like rope seals and 5/16 ring packs, but don't know what would be considered too high. I've also seen where others are much lower, so this one isn't exactly low but not as high as some either.

It's not a critical measurement, just something I check for giggles. Paul could better answer your question as I'm sure he may not only check this, but probably checks things like piston pull during assembly.

[Skip Fix]

That is something the NHRA Stockers and Super Stockers work hard to get low.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

What torque is too high?

A stock engine with stock 5/64" ring packs[which Formula meant to say as those 5/16" ring packs are really heavy!], and rope seal takes about 35 FT. LBS. to turn over. With the 1/16" ring pack in this engine, 25 FT.LBS. is about right. With low tension rings, and a .043" top ring, I got my engine masters engine down to 16 FT. LBS. to break free from stopped, with rotational being even less.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

A stock engine with stock 5/64" ring packs[which Formula meant to say as those 5/16" ring packs are really heavy!], and rope seal takes about 35 FT. LBS. to turn over. With the 1/16" ring pack in this engine, 25 FT.LBS. is about right. With low tension rings, and a .043" top ring, I got my engine masters engine down to 16 FT. LBS. to break free from stopped, with rotational being even less.

LOL yep that's what I meant. Too many numbers flying around in my head and I can't make my fingers follow

I've seen some in the teens like you did, that always amazes me.

[Formulajones]

Just an update. Engine is buttoned up. Plan to run it on our engine stand next weekend. I still have to take the carb apart and change some things around. Cliff sent a nice kit with what he believes should work for the combination of parts here so I'll get started on that tomorrow. Still waiting on one distributor part so I can go through that and set it up, run some plug wires and it'll be ready to fire.

Once that's successful I'll give Paul a call and schedule a dyno appointment and see what it will make.

Taking guesses now on power output if anyone wants to play along. I have a wager with a couple guys already. If you haven't read the whole thread, the engine is completely stock

[Formulajones]

It's alive!!

Nice steady idle at 900 rpm and making a solid 13 inches of vacuum up here at 5,000 feet. That should be 15-17 inches at sea level, so a very streetable engine that will be happy to run the power brakes.

Will be on the dyno soon.

https://youtu.be/FIYRsDTD_90

[Formulas]

Is that water pump pulley smaller than most or a camera thing?

[Formulajones]

The A/C water pump pulleys are smaller than a non A/C equipped car.

This particular car does have A/C, I'm just not mounting that stuff right now, it's not needed for the dyno.

[neill]

Thanks guys for posting all of this. It is very expensive learning how to make one of these builds live on your own and make power without others experiences. I believe 25 lbs. torque with those relatively tight bearing clearances shows nice machining. Isn't the big/little pulley thing also a 455 thing for extra cooling with a lower revving engine? Neill

['ol Pinion head]

the particular wp pulley installed in the above pic was used on '72 455HO automatic code engines with factory AC. other factory AC equipped '71-72 Pontiac v8's used the much more common & slightly larger diam 481040 wp pulley.

['ol Pinion head]

Thank you Paul & Larry for posting the info in this thread!

[Steve C.]

Originally Posted by Formulajones
"Short block is done. 25 ft lbs. for continuous rotational torque..."

Intended only as a fwiw comment for conversation, and to further comment the 25 lbs is good.......

In Pete McCarthy book within the section about building a Super Stock short block he states, "A complete short block should not take more than 30 lbs to spin". This when trial fitting the crank and with a rope seal in use.



.

[Formulajones]

You guys are more than welcome. There is still yet more to come. The engine is awaiting an opening on the dyno so as soon as Paul frees up his busy schedule I'll have some video and numbers to post.

We are looking for some really good numbers out of this setup and I don't think it's going to disappoint.

[1971455HO]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Paul is in Tucson, Arizona. Koerner Racing Engines and Cryo treatment.

I don't know the exact cam specs but it's a custom grind Paul specified. I have an idea. I'd rather have the cam card in my hand and talk to Paul before I spill the beans, or maybe he'll comment on it.

Nice build going there Larry. Have read every post with great interest. Was hoping Mr. carter or you would share the HR cam specs for this build. I can only assume he prefers not to disclose that at this time. That's okay.

I'm an amateur for sure, but I find it amazing that a top cam manufacturer in this high tech world would miss indexing a key-way over 5 degrees. Yes sir, degree-ING is mandatory.

Cant wait to see how it dyno's.