[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

I would like to see back to back power numbers rather than flow numbers. Maybe that's been posted and I missed it.

But as I said, Ive been shopping around for BBC heads and in most head to head comparisons I have seen the cheap castings do give up power, even as their flow numbers seemed similar. Obviously there are a lot more options out there for the BBC than there are for Pontiacs which could play a factor as well. One test specifically was the 320cc Pro Comps against several other big name heads. While the Pro Comps performed admirably, they lost handily to AFR and Brodix.


To be fair here, if I remember that test correctly the BBC E heads lost handily to the AFRs and all as well. Considering that's largely what we have on the Pontiac side, maybe the Speedmasters are closer to the competition. Of course they could be better too. I would like to see it.

That's why I bought AFR's for my BBC. Nothing else compared to the flow numbers vs port volume at that time, and likely still don't.

[ponyakr]

Don't have a dog in this hunt.

But, I have found the conversation about 'em very interesting.

Most seem to have the opinion that even tho they may be a little cheaper, unless they produce equal or more power than the USA heads, they won't buy 'em & won't consider 'em worth buying, for anyone else.

Others MIGHT buy 'em IF several others have good luck with 'em, & they hold up for a reasonable length of time.

I figure there is a danger here that the sales will be so slow, they'll be discontinued for perceived lack of interest.

I do see a real market for a cheap(or at least reasonably priced) Pontiac block, that is equal to or slightly better than a good 400 Pontiac block. Such a block should give a real boost to the Pontiac hobby. $3,000+ blocks do not encourage would-be Pontiac engine guys.

However, an almost ready-to-assemble block, for say around $1500, should be a good seller. Anything over $2k probably wouldn't do very well. But, I'm sure this has been discussed here.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...05123/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...69841/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...70538/10002/-1

[63gpman]

$1114.74 shipped, under 12 hours remaining on the sale. I don't need big HP, but nice to have the CNC chamber and the aluminum to help with heat. I purchased a set. Will be a while before I use them but assuming that since the price they have on them is less than a dealers cost, they are not likely to be this low again other than next year BF sale? Friend has a set of the SBC pro comps on his driver for several years with no issues.
https://speedmaster79.com/Pontiac-38...er-Head?page=1

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Don't have a dog in this hunt.

But, I have found the conversation about 'em very interesting.

Most seem to have the opinion that even tho they may be a little cheaper, unless they produce equal or more power than the USA heads, they won't buy 'em & won't consider 'em worth buying, for anyone else.

Others MIGHT buy 'em IF several others have good luck with 'em, & they hold up for a reasonable length of time.

I figure there is a danger here that the sales will be so slow, they'll be discontinued for perceived lack of interest.

I do see a real market for a cheap(or at least reasonably priced) Pontiac block, that is equal to or slightly better than a good 400 Pontiac block. Such a block should give a real boost to the Pontiac hobby. $3,000+ blocks do not encourage would-be Pontiac engine guys.

However, an almost ready-to-assemble block, for say around $1500, should be a good seller. Anything over $2k probably wouldn't do very well. But, I'm sure this has been discussed here.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...05123/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...69841/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...70538/10002/-1

People complain about the price of the Pontiac hobby, but this is a big part of why that's the case. The reason prices for this engine package are high is because people allow them to be high and are gun-shy or simply unwilling to go to a competitor.

[PAUL K]

Pontiac racers waited a long time to have a good commercially available single four barrel manifold developed for the Pontiac. Edelbrock came out with the Victor. A couple of years ago the 4500 version had poor sales so the bean counters raised the price $100 in one jump. Then the sales really slowed down and they discontinued it.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

However, an almost ready-to-assemble block, for say around $1500, should be a good seller. Anything over $2k probably wouldn't do very well. But, I'm sure this has been discussed here.

Any thoughts on why no one has stepped to the plate and produced a budget based Pontiac block that can be sold for $1500?

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Any thoughts on why no one has stepped to the plate and produced a budget based Pontiac block that can be sold for $1500?

I'm not certain it's even possible. Not unless somebody with deep pockets did at a loss out of the kindness of their heart.

Related, but also unreleated, there's no standard for what that would be. There are multitudes of threads asking for it and the only thing that everyone wants is for the exterior of the block to look factory.

Everyone wants some type of updates to the block, but very few people agree on what those improvements should or should not be.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Any thoughts on why no one has stepped to the plate and produced a budget based Pontiac block that can be sold for $1500?

I'll take a stab at that.

(1) Because I haven't won one of the $100,000,000 + lottery jackpots, yet. That's not meant as a joke.

(2) No super rich guy has wanted to do it.

(3) Guys with the knowhow & want-to, don't have enuff money to do it.

(4) Guys with the knowhow to do it, who could borrow the money, don't figure they could make a profit on 'em, and assume they would probably LOSE lots of money, or it would at least take many years to break even.

There may be other reasons. Only thing i remember, for sure, about previous discussions of this is how many differing ideas there were about the details of such a block. Some guys kept upping the capabilities to the point where they'd have to sell for nearly the price of the current high dollar blocks.

And, I assume that makers of the current blocks would fight a cheaper block as hard as they could, so that they wouldn't lose any sales because of a cheaper block.

[Formulajones]

Not enough demand.

I like Pontiacs as much as anyone here, but reality is, not many other people outside the forums do.

It's also not cheap to build a Pontiac, that's just been the way it's been for a long time, especially when you get into the aftermarket stuff.

I can build a BBC cheaper and make as much or more power. The price of Pontiac engines makes the LS swaps more tempting too.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I'll take a stab at that.

(1) Because I haven't won one of the $100,000,000 + lottery jackpots, yet. That's not meant as a joke.

(2) No super rich guy has wanted to do it.

(3) Guys with the knowhow & want-to, don't have enuff money to do it.

(4) Guys with the knowhow to do it, who could borrow the money, don't figure they could make a profit on 'em, and assume they would probably LOSE lots of money, or it would at least take many years to break even.

There may be other reasons. Only thing i remember, for sure, about previous discussions of this is how many differing ideas there were about the details of such a block. Some guys kept upping the capabilities to the point where they'd have to sell for nearly the price of the current high dollar blocks.

And, I assume that makers of the current blocks would fight a cheaper block as hard as they could, so that they wouldn't lose any sales because of a cheaper block.

Good input.... any thoughts on how many blocks might need to be sold before a profit is made?

I heard an up front number of 250K a couple of decades ago for the IA block to get the first batch done....using that number (and don't know how to convert that to today's dollar value).... 167 blocks would need to be sold to break even....how many guys would buy a block?

Before answering, keep in mind many here have complained about the cost of Edelbrock heads. Then the Speedmaster heads came out for two thirds the cost of the E'heads and a lot of folks questioned the quality. Then the Speedmaster heads were put on sale for approximately a third the cost of E's and still quite a few folks opted out and others just complained that they still weren't as cheap as an Oldsmobile head.

Also consider for more than a decade folks complained about the cost of an aftermarket block and claimed they wanted a budget friendly Sportsman block and those would sell like sliced bread. AP had a small batch of "soft" blocks (same hardness as an OEM block) and sold them at a Sportsman block price....and it took quite a while to sell them.

So how many $1500 blocks do you realistically think would be purchased?

[Sirrotica]

IMO, Jim butler was the first person heavily invested in the Pontiac Hobby/Business world that recognized that if someone didn't step up and find another source for 455 crankshafts it was going to severely curtail his business, as well as the hobby. He made the investment into chi-com made cast cranks and then a few other vendors jumped on board the train in other areas.

Blocks were also in short supply, and a stronger block was going to be needed if there was ever going to be a sub 6 second Pontiac in drag racing history. Dick Duclow made the IA 1 block with help from a few others. So as the 40 plus year old supply of engine parts dwindles, the aftermarket has to step up and fill the holes to keep the whole thing alive.

I never in my wildest imagination ever figured that there would be a day I could build a Pontiac V8 without even one GM part. It kinda makes you step back and marvel at what has happened with the aftermarket filling all the voids left by GM/Pontiac. The only problem is that most of the Pontiac community wants the new aftermarket parts to cost the same as what they bought over the parts counter at the local Pontiac dealer, or at the junkyard in 1975...……….

[Mike Davis]

Pontiac people are cheap, plain and simple. Try selling something in the ads here. You list it for 50% of original cost and someone will always ask if you will take 1/2 that and throw in free shipping.
I would kindly pay $1800-$2200 for a Factory Type Block with 4 Bolt Mains and lifter bores braced that will go 4.250 and would take 1K HP. Don't think it's gonna happen.
While the MR1 and IA are good blocks they have that large bulkhead in front of #1 that kills the factory look. For the Nostalgia stuff I run I will continue using Factory blocks with billet caps and filled.

Back to the heads!!!!
I bought a set for a street 428 build. I wanted to put RAIV or Ram Air II heads on it but cannot see paying 4-5K for a set of heads that need to be rebuilt. This will be a mild build 550-600HP stock looking cruiser. I was going to order another set of E heads when these popped up. I figure I would check these out when they arrived. If they look good- I'll touch up the valve job, surface to 68CC and put good springs on.

[Will]

I haven't seen a '70 - '74 casting 400 block for sale around here in a looooonnnnggg time. The '60s blocks come up every once in awhile and the later '70s thin wall blocks come up pretty frequently. Maybe these blocks are more plentiful in other areas of the country, but around here they're really rare.

I'd think a $1500 block that's a bit stronger than the factory block would have a market, but that's just based on my own personal experience.

If you could just duplicate the 481988 block but give it a solid lifter gallery and sell it with 4-bolt caps included for less than $1500, I'd think you'd have a winner.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Good input.... any thoughts on how many blocks might need to be sold before a profit is made?

I heard an up front number of 250K a couple of decades ago for the IA block to get the first batch done....using that number (and don't know how to convert that to today's dollar value).... 167 blocks would need to be sold to break even....how many guys would buy a block?

Before answering, keep in mind many here have complained about the cost of Edelbrock heads. Then the Speedmaster heads came out for two thirds the cost of the E'heads and a lot of folks questioned the quality. Then the Speedmaster heads were put on sale for approximately a third the cost of E's and still quite a few folks opted out and others just complained that they still weren't as cheap as an Oldsmobile head.

Also consider for more than a decade folks complained about the cost of an aftermarket block and claimed they wanted a budget friendly Sportsman block and those would sell like sliced bread. AP had a small batch of "soft" blocks (same hardness as an OEM block) and sold them at a Sportsman block price....and it took quite a while to sell them.

So how many $1500 blocks do you realistically think would be purchased?

I'm one that cannot see any reason whatsoever why an olds or an AMC head is much closer to the price of a SBC head. In all these years there has never been any plausible reason as to why there is so much disparity and that a Pontiac head is almost the highest priced cylinder head in the performer series of heads.

Paul K, I'm all ears as to why there is such a disparity. Perhaps you being in the retail end of the aftermarket you can shed some light on why a pair of lower demand olds or AMC heads should be $400-$800 cheaper per pair? I'm not being a smart ass, I really want to know the reason why. If anyone can give me a commonsense reason that proves out, then they've shown me that there is a reason besides greed on the manufacturers end...…………

So far it's all subjection on pricing, I'd like a concrete answer...

[ponyakr]

"...So how many $1500 blocks do you realistically think would be purchased?"

I don't have a clue.

But, from what I've read on this & other Pontiac sites, a good core block, and all the machine work required to do it right, will cost that same $1500, or more.

I'm not a machinist. So, I don't know what machine shop charges are. But I remember reading that Paul Carter does all sorts of stuff to a core block. Seems the deck has to squared with the crank, and possibly the main journals honed, oil passages & plugs done, etc, etc, etc. Just a guess that all this work, plus the cost of a good 400 core block would be more than $1500.

But, I'd like to see estimates from guys here who know for sure what is required & the costs.

Just for comparison, Butler gets nearly $4k for a ready to assemble shortblock kit. They sell the rotating assembly for less than $2k. So, they're charging over $2k for the machined block.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234783

Len Williams charges $3800 for a 400 block stroker shortblock. So, I figure he's charging over $1500 for the core block & all the machine work.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Short_Block.html

So, I figure the guys who will pay these prices, would gladly pay $1500 for a brand new block, if the quality is equal to or better than an 40+ year old re-machined block.

Some of the old blocks won't stand any larger bore size. Some have lots of corrosion damage. Some have had lots of material cut off the deck, during previous rebuilds. Some don't have the correct holes needed for both 2 & 3-bolt motor mounts.

I just think a GOOD quality $1500 Pontiac block would sell & encourage some guys to go with Pontiac, rather than some sort of Chevy power. Will they sell as good as Chevy blocks ? Of course not. Will they sell fast enuff for a guy to turn a quick profit, no.

There have been lots of guys post that good Pontiac blocks do not exist in the area where they live. And, there are lots of old Pontiac guys that have hoarded up all the cheap Pontiac blocks they have run across, for the last 30 years or longer. These are, no doubt, 2 reasons why some guys have decided to go with Chevy power.

[Bill Eveland]

So did anyone buy a set of these thru the facebook deal for 1100 or so for the pair? Quanities were limited at that price so not sure if that price is any good. Just wondered of someone here jumped on that deal...

[dmac]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

"...So how many $1500 blocks do you realistically think would be purchased?"

I don't have a clue.

But, from what I've read on this & other Pontiac sites, a good core block, and all the machine work required to do it right, will cost that same $1500, or more.

I'm not a machinist. So, I don't know what machine shop charges are. But I remember reading that Paul Carter does all sorts of stuff to a core block. Seems the deck has to squared with the crank, and possibly the main journals honed, oil passages & plugs done, etc, etc, etc. Just a guess that all this work, plus the cost of a good 400 core block would be more than $1500.

But, I'd like to see estimates from guys here who know for sure what is required & the costs.

I would bet that even after spending $1500, you would still need some machine work- at least a thorough check of bores, deck surface, line bore. Probably still not something the guy like me with basic hand tools could buy and assemble, at least until enough of them had been reviewed. It is the 'average' guy in the tens of thousands who would need to be the major market to justify the investment upfront .

[grivera]

Originally Posted by 63gpman

$1114.74 shipped, under 12 hours remaining on the sale. I don't need big HP, but nice to have the CNC chamber and the aluminum to help with heat. I purchased a set. Will be a while before I use them but assuming that since the price they have on them is less than a dealers cost, they are not likely to be this low again other than next year BF sale? Friend has a set of the SBC pro comps on his driver for several years with no issues.
https://speedmaster79.com/Pontiac-38...er-Head?page=1

The sale on the heads and the forged cranks is gone! Back to regular price!!

[Murf]

I’d like someone with experience to post how much a guy would have in a completely built set of stock heads. New valve, springs, guides etc. Setup for about .600 lift. Anybody have a ballpark figure?

Thanks
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by Murf

I’d like someone with experience to post how much a guy would have in a completely built set of stock heads. New valve, springs, guides etc. Setup for about .600 lift. Anybody have a ballpark figure?

Thanks
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

just one example: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=836089