[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Wrong. This thread is all over the map, but it's about leveling the playing field.
In simple terms, that means improving the Pontiac engine.

THAT IS SOME FUNNY CHIT.

GM killed the Pontiac Division as well as the Oldsmobile Division.

There is NO Pontiac Engine, they stopped making them years ago.
The LS engine was the last breath of the Pontiac Division.

You have some people copying Pontiac Engineered designs for parts.
You have some making parts that will just bolt onto the engine.
Saying that an engine is a Pontiac engine just because it has approximately a 4.625" BORE SPACING is mighty weak as far as calling a part a Pontiac part.
You have a few left over Junk Yard and garage hoarded parts still out there.

Leveling the Playing Field, like I said some funny chit.
When John Mahovitz can run a 5.70 quarter mile time with a 281 cid engine
using Turbos, when you can also run a 5.70 quarter mile time with the same weight vehicle, with the same aero, and with the same 4.6L engine size then you can talk about a level playing field.
Mahovitz went thru about 26 engines (give or take a couple) to put his number on the board and many years of time and lots of money.

You, 242177P, just want to gripe about not having a level playing field.
I have not seen one post by you providing any real knowledge to this forum or any other forum. Just a complainer when a few do all of the work.

Where is your LS background so that you can figure out how to make a BETTER engine vs the LS engine and call it a Pontiac Engine. Go away. Mickey Thompson was a DO-ER. You are just a complainer.

I have given you advice on the board. Can't accuse me of stirring Chit. My advice is valid as is my history on the Pontiac Aftermarket Engine parts.

Tom V.

[P@blo]

If we really think about it all the vintage parts we hord should go back into the pontiac chassis from which they came. The guys restoring to the vintage will do more to preserve Pontiac then anything us hot rodders will do.

Best year block this, best year that is accelerating the process...

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

There is NO Pontiac Engine, they stopped making them years ago.
The LS engine was the last breath of the Pontiac Division.

You have some people copying Pontiac Engineered designs for parts.
You have some making parts that will just bolt onto the engine.
Saying that an engine is a Pontiac engine just because it has approximately a 4.625" BORE SPACING is mighty weak as far as calling a part a Pontiac part.
You have a few left over Junk Yard and garage hoarded parts still out there.

I have an aftermarket block in my 65 GTO, aluminum heads, quick fuel carb. Repop gauges and sheet metal, Dana 60, and a muncie with an aftermarket case.

Sometimes I wish I'd done it with factory parts. I'd love to have a 421 tripower or dual quad setup instead, original gauges and sheet metal, all that jazz. But truth is, sooner or later you are going to have to put an aftermarket part on your car if you want to drive it a lot. And chances are pretty good that part was made outside of the USA. So I think we all end up falling somewhere on a spectrum of where we are comfortable, how far we are willing to deviate from building a car exactly like GM did in the 60's.

I don't have a logical answer as to why I prefer an aftermarket Pontiac block in my car to an aftermarket BBC or an LS engine, it's just kind of what felt right to me. I'd consider trading it for a nice original 421, maybe something with factory round ports from a later engine, would be pretty fast and fun still and more "Pontiac." But what's the point in driving around in a 421 car with chinese gauges? Better go burn rubber with what I have and not worry about it.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

When John Mahovitz can run a 5.70 quarter mile time with a 281 cid engine

Let me guess... he's a Ford guy? And 5.70s in the ¼??
Scroll back up to the top, you'll see Pontiac - Street.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by i82much

I have an aftermarket block in my 65 GTO, aluminum heads, quick fuel carb. Repop gauges and sheet metal, Dana 60, and a muncie with an aftermarket case.

Sometimes I wish I'd done it with factory parts. I'd love to have a 421 tripower or dual quad setup instead, original gauges and sheet metal, all that jazz. But truth is, sooner or later you are going to have to put an aftermarket part on your car if you want to drive it a lot. And chances are pretty good that part was made outside of the USA. So I think we all end up falling somewhere on a spectrum of where we are comfortable, how far we are willing to deviate from building a car exactly like GM did in the 60's.

I don't have a logical answer as to why I prefer an aftermarket Pontiac block in my car to an aftermarket BBC or an LS engine, it's just kind of what felt right to me. I'd consider trading it for a nice original 421, maybe something with factory round ports from a later engine, would be pretty fast and fun still and more "Pontiac." But what's the point in driving around in a 421 car with chinese gauges? Better go burn rubber with what I have and not worry about it.

Can't disagree with that post.
I had a complete 376 hp 421 engine: Heads, fresh .010/.010 crank, that I basically gave to a friend for $200 just to get it out of my garage. Same deal with four 400 blocks from 1968 to 1970. I will never use them so I gave them away.

I still have my original 1964 389 Tri-Power Engine and 4 speed trans for the car but only because I want to keep the car and those parts somewhat together.

So after owning the car since new from the GM Brass Hat Executive (he drove it for 6 months), I have owned it. Far longer than 99% of the people on this board of thousands have owned their Pontiacs. 242177P probably was in diapers or not even born when the car was sold. So he pretends that I am a Ford Guy and he is a Pontiac Guy. RIGHT. Can't fix stupid.

I am a Boost Guy, I can make anything fast.
Drone Aircraft that fly in the skies 40,000 feet up taking pictures of the Bad Guys for days at a time powered by Hydrogen Fuel.

Ford 4.6L engines that can run 5.70s in the quarter in a car, not a dragster or Funny car.

Bonneville engines that can run 270 MPH in a 82 Trans Am.

So the little boy in diapers thinks his bawling contributes anything to the discussion on Pontiac vs LS engines for engineering capabilities?
You got to be kidding. He is just a troll over in the clubhouse.

I personally give examples in discussions I have. Some should try it sometime. General Motors made the decision to Kill a dying breed of engines, Pontiac and Oldsmobile. Just like Ford Killed the Flathead engines, the 300 cid 6 cylinder engines and 5.0L engines, and the 312 Ford engines.

The 302 engines were weak and had crummy heads until Engineering came up with heavy duty blocks, cranks, and good flowing heads to work with the Centrifugal Superchargers at the time. The last real "Heavy Duty" Pontiac Block was 455 SD engine in 1973.

1973, 1983, 1993, 2003, 2013, 2020, almost 50 years ago.

Most guys would like the original cars so that they could later sell the cars for big cash. Purely a money thing. No love for the original cars. A few: John V, OMT, and a couple of others still have their 64 GTOs they bought new.

The rest are just after the bucks or want to live the dream of owning a muscle car.

The LS engine is a fine engine. As is the aftermarket parts from some companies. That is all I will say on that deal.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Pontiac Engine Parts History Question:
Who were"Bob Sparklin", "Jerry Scheller", and "Alice Nugin"?
Tom V.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Can't disagree with that post.
I had a complete 376 hp 421 engine: Heads, fresh .010/.010 crank, that I basically gave to a friend for $200 just to get it out of my garage. Same deal with four 400 blocks from 1968 to 1970. I will never use them so I gave them away.

I still have my original 1964 389 Tri-Power Engine and 4 speed trans for the car but only because I want to keep the car and those parts somewhat together.

So after owning the car since new from the GM Brass Hat Executive (he drove it for 6 months), I have owned it. Far longer than 99% of the people on this board of thousands have owned their Pontiacs. 242177P probably was in diapers or not even born when the car was sold. So he pretends that I am a Ford Guy and he is a Pontiac Guy. RIGHT. Can't fix stupid.

I am a Boost Guy, I can make anything fast.
Drone Aircraft that fly in the skies 40,000 feet up taking pictures of the Bad Guys for days at a time powered by Hydrogen Fuel.

Ford 4.6L engines that can run 5.70s in the quarter in a car, not a dragster or Funny car.

Bonneville engines that can run 270 MPH in a 82 Trans Am.

So the little boy in diapers thinks his bawling contributes anything to the discussion on Pontiac vs LS engines for engineering capabilities?
You got to be kidding. He is just a troll over in the clubhouse.

I personally give examples in discussions I have. Some should try it sometime. General Motors made the decision to Kill a dying breed of engines, Pontiac and Oldsmobile. Just like Ford Killed the Flathead engines, the 300 cid 6 cylinder engines and 5.0L engines, and the 312 Ford engines.

The 302 engines were weak and had crummy heads until Engineering came up with heavy duty blocks, cranks, and good flowing heads to work with the Centrifugal Superchargers at the time. The last real "Heavy Duty" Pontiac Block was 455 SD engine in 1973.

1973, 1983, 1993, 2003, 2013, 2020, almost 50 years ago.

Most guys would like the original cars so that they could later sell the cars for big cash. Purely a money thing. No love for the original cars. A few: John V, OMT, and a couple of others still have their 64 GTOs they bought new.

The rest are just after the bucks or want to live the dream of owning a muscle car.

The LS engine is a fine engine. As is the aftermarket parts from some companies. That is all I will say on that deal.

Tom V.

My parents bought my car in 83, I got it from them in 91. At the time it had a 350 Chevy in it, we got the original 389 with the car. It had a busted crank, we put it in storage and it was stolen while I was off in the Army.

I guess one reason I am not a total purist is that I fell in love with the car when it had a Chevy engine!

90’s were kind of cool. Some 5.0 Mustangs around but also a lot of guys with old Chevelles and Firebirds and such. Some original engines, most not. The junkyards were picked clean of the really high end stuff but you could still find a decent 12 bolt posi or a set of 15 inch Rally II wheels. I broke a few 8.2’s and was able to find cheap replacements.

I am amazed how few decent factory blocks are out there. I definitely remember when finding a 400 block was no problem at all.

[Tom Vaught]

The guys I basically gave the four 400 blocks to was very happy to have them.
Basically sold the blocks for the old junk yard prices I paid for them.
No need to make money off of them. i82much, you seem like a guy you is actually HAPPY with your projects.

B-Man has installed a bunch of aftermarket stuff, (and learned a lot doing it), on one of his Pontiac vehicles that he decided to put a LS engine into. I am happy, for him, because HE is building the car the way HE wants to build it.

Tom V.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The guys I basically gave the four 400 blocks to was very happy to have them.
Basically sold the blocks for the old junk yard prices I paid for them.
No need to make money off of them. i82much, you seem like a guy you is actually HAPPY with your projects.

B-Man has installed a bunch of aftermarket stuff, (and learned a lot doing it), on one of his Pontiac vehicles that he decided to put a LS engine into. I am happy, for him, because HE is building the car the way HE wants to build it.

Tom V.

I have a little nick in the paint in my quarter panel. When it first happened, I was sick to my stomach. I thought about it more, and now every time I walk by the car I look at it and it makes me happy. I got that nick because I drove my car. Before they put me in the grave, I honestly hope I have a hell of a lot more nicks in the paint, dirt on the undercarriage, and stains in the carpet.

I'll try to keep it nice by maintaining it, but not by being afraid to drive it.

[geeteeohguy]

New technology usually trumps old tech. That's the way it works. Harley's can't compete with Hyabusas. The old Strato Streak was modern for it's time 65 years ago and had a good run. The tripower 389 in my '65 GTO won't spank new cars like it did for the first 10-15 years I owned it, but it still sounds like nothing else on the road today and the torque peels my eyelids back and makes me smile, even though it's 'slow'. The stock mild original 400 in my '67 GTO makes me smile every time I take it out on a road trip. It is as reliable as any new car, and has more passing power than any 6.0 LS powered vehicle I've run up against at high speed.....I guess it's my 2.56 rear gears and 440+ ft pds of torque. Are these 55 and 52 years old cars as fast and refined as an LS new car? No. Do they sound better, have more soul, and are they a part of my life from youth to old age? HELL YEAH.

[Scott65]

There's a '58 370 for sale in the classifieds, even has a forged crank. Somebody (not me) could do a good comparison with that.

[ta-kid]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

New technology usually trumps old tech. That's the way it works. Harley's can't compete with Hyabusas. The old Strato Streak was modern for it's time 65 years ago and had a good run. The tripower 389 in my '65 GTO won't spank new cars like it did for the first 10-15 years I owned it, but it still sounds like nothing else on the road today and the torque peels my eyelids back and makes me smile, even though it's 'slow'. The stock mild original 400 in my '67 GTO makes me smile every time I take it out on a road trip. It is as reliable as any new car, and has more passing power than any 6.0 LS powered vehicle I've run up against at high speed.....I guess it's my 2.56 rear gears and 440+ ft pds of torque. Are these 55 and 52 years old cars as fast and refined as an LS new car? No. Do they sound better, have more soul, and are they a part of my life from youth to old age? HELL YEAH.

I have owned a couple C6 ZO6 cars and they were a Hoot.Lots of power and 30mpg.But I still prefer my 455HO trans am for a cruise.