[glhs#116]

I feel like I'm in some kind of Greek tragedy. Some of you may know that in over two years I haven't had my car running really properly and certainly not without a "tick". For the last thrilling episode you could have a quick scroll through Return Of The Tick (https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...9940&p=6026144).

Anyway, the short version is that I had both an idea of how to find it and a reason to pull the pan anyway.

The reason to pull the pan anyway was that my intermediate dipstick tube dropped in the pan. This, naturally, lead to the loss of the end of my dipstick. The second reason was that since I knew I'd had some detonation early on I figured a new set of rod bearings wouldn't go amiss.

The hope came from an observation that the tick I have goes away under deceleration and righthand turns. It's there stationary and accelerating and lefthand turns. I therefore figured I'm looking for something that can move (like swing or something) and was thinking maybe the intermediate dipstick tube is kinda half hanging in there and contacting in certain conditions.

So anyway. Propped up the engine on the manifolds and got the pan off. (oh yeah, my brand new passenger side motor mount was in two pieces - luckily I never trusted those and had a second on hand. These Anchor motor mounts seem like crap but I can't find another source) Well, as expected, end of dipstick and intermediate dipstick tube in bottom of pan. Also a dowel from the timing cover bottom holes..

Took off the windage tray and what do I find?

Windage tray before removal. No dipstick intermediate tube


..and inside the windage tray..


Witness marks from the crank counterweights running it against the tray


Yes, it's one of the engine dowels. How..? I can only imagine that since I had to replace some and I had some spare lying around one must have gotten tipped in there without me noticing and stayed in the tray. I really can't imagine how nor how it never left the tray. There is room in the slot for that dowel to get shot out into the pan.

Anyway, it's distressing to see how abused that dowel is because I know it is a hardened piece. Although I couldn't see a lot of marks on the counterweights. But I was pleased because it fit what I knew about the sound. That dowel would roll forward out of the way on decel..

A dowel that has had a hard time of it..


Possibly even reaching the underside of a few pistons..


Now I had ordered a new windage tray, new dipstick intermediate tube, new dipstick.. But, my usual course is to distrust aftermarket parts until proven otherwise. My stock windage tray was clearly thicker material than the replacement and it had a tighter hole for the intermediate tube. I figured I should still use it.

Because I'm a visual guy I'm going to continue this post in the next so I can fit more pictures..

Sam

[glhs#116]

..OK.

So, looking at the new intermediate tube it looked pretty nice. And my old one looked really beat up. I also found that the new one couldn't even be inserted because it was a tight fit. My old one always sort of flopped in there held by the tray. The crimp had gotten beaten out of my old tube so that it slid straight through the tray but I fixed that with a large screwdriver and hammer. I noticed that the replacement tray had a bigger hole. I also noticed that my tray had a crack where the hole was and I figured this was from the intermediate tube being forced through. However, the metal is thick and it wasn't floppy at all.

New and old intermediate tubes


Crack in windage tray hole for intermediate tube


My stock tray overall


Well, really I was quite motivated to use the new tube. I could see that once installed it for sure was going nowhere. Now, with my four bolt main block I had to actually remove #3 main cap to even insert the tube. Then I had to beat on it some before I could reinstall the cap. Then I had to beat it round to the right position. I was damned sure that tube was going nowhere.

At this point I felt pretty good. I had replaced the rod bearings and I didn't see anything too alarming on any of the caps or nuts. Old bearings looked fairly good with just a bit of evidence from the detonation early on in the upper shells. Got the windage tray aligned with the new tube which now has zero play and is absolutely jammed in place by #3 main. I admit I was feeling pretty good.

All buttoned up on the windage tray front. New dipstick on display


And a nice clean pan to reinstall..


Well, long story short. Slammed it all together, started it up, and like the world's worst houseguest, damned tick is still there. Maybe just a little louder and crisper.

Drove to work this morning and verified that -- yes -- still has the same characteristic that it goes silent on decel. The other thing I noticed is that the old tick would take a few minutes of warmup before it started. The new situation is that it is there from cold. But, honestly, it sounds about the same and it is there in the same situations.

I'm going to start a GoFundMe for mental health treatment, I think. Anyway, ideas on a postcard are always welcome. As before, I hear it louder at the bottom than top of the engine. I also hear it (think I do) more at the front. But I can't find anything like the pan or an accessory that seems to directly transmit the noise. If I press a screwdriver to the valve covers it's just whir-whir-whir. Same with the alternator, power steering pump etc.. The old tick was there even with the belts off and the torque converter unbolted but I haven't had time to try all that again.

Sam

[steve25]

Man oh man I am so sorry to hear of all this crap Sam!
One thing I have always done on my 455 motors when using a full lenght tray is to use one or two flat washers under each tray hold down bolt to have confidence that with normal flexing it would always clear the factory Rods and Crank.

[glhs#116]

Just looking through the few pictures I took (I never take enough)..



Of course the problem is always that you never know whether that is just old old news from long ago in the car's history..

Sam

[steve25]

Sam I think that the Dowl pin came out of one of the main caps and needs to be in place to center the cap it fell out of left to right.

When you locate which one it dropped out of I would very closely check that bulk head / main web wall for cracks.

I have had a few blocks that where cracked from day ONE down along one of the main cap bolt holes from the factory drilling and taping process and these cracks can spread any whichway!

I hope I am wrong about this, but either way since you are now running a baffled pan I would ditch the Windage tray and install a Crank scraper and then eliminate issues with that tray!

[glhs#116]

Steve,

I must admit, I wondered where the dowel came from. But how on earth could it drop out of a main cap that is installed and torqued down? Am I missing something? It can't tunnel through metal, right? I know all the caps were torqued down twice and I know all the dowels were in (and the right height) before the caps were installed. #3 which I took out and put back definitely still had both dowels..

Sam

[Cliff R]

+ 2 on ditching the windage tray.

If you have a baffled pan and your main cap has the bosses drilled/tapped for the later style dipstick tube you'd be WAY better off getting completely away from the windage tray completely.

I've seen enough windage trays crack and have clearance/fitment issues to avoid them altogether with these engines. I use the better Canton or Morroso oil pans with my builds anyhow, and don't even mess around with windage trays and the associated hardware that goes with them. The other thing I've ran into with stroker cranks, aftermarket rods, etc, is greatly reduced clearances to them, and nearly every single one I have used required shimming and extra work to make things fit.

A good baffled pan is all that is needed here. These are relatively "low" RPM street engines, and yours for sure would not benefit anyplace from having a windage tray in there in the first place.....IMHO.

As far as the dowel in concerned I've seen a few fall out over the years and end up in the windage tray or oil pan. Most were high mileage blocks subjected to a higher stress environment like a lot of drag racing plus higher power levels, but they do fall out from time to time on stock or close to stock applications......Cliff

[Va68goat]

Man, after reading your post, I realize I have PTSD. I chased a ticking and knocking noise on my 455 for two years. When my buiilder finished my engine and dyno'd it, it had a catostrophic failure when the pickup tube fell into the pan, causing extreme damage to the #5 and #6 connecting rods (spun bearings as well). It was later repaired and delivered to me. After receiving my engine and starting it up for the first time, it had a ticking noise and a knocking noise. We pulled the engine and sent some pictures of the windage tray to the the builder. He noticed that he improperly spaced the windage tray. We properly spaced the windage tray and a knocking noise was still present. We replaced the rockers, pushrods, lifters and flex plate. We also discovered that the oil pump shaft had witness marks on it. Two years later we discovered that the #5 piston skirt collapsed when it failed on the dyno. (#5 & #6 connecting rod was severely damaged and the bearings were spun (eaten up)!

I feel your pain. Good luck. Keep posting on here. Most of the forum members here gave great advice and they walked me through this for 2 years!

[78w72]

agree on nixing the windage tray. i was debating on using one on a stroker motor build & was advised against it from some here & other reputable builders. i use a milodon baffled pan & the dipstick that bolts to the cap. even your stock baffled pan should be plenty oil control for a low rpm 455 street car.

a dowl pin can't fall out of the block with the caps installed, but maybe it happened when you were working in there... now you need to find where it came out of & get it reinstalled. sounds like another pan drop is in the future, but you can probably do this blind folded now!

as for the split motor mount, anchor & all other brands are pretty much crap & cant hold any real power/torque. you can look into the mighty mounts that butler sells, they will help but some say they break too & are WAY overpriced for what they are. or do what i did & make your own, very simple to do, just drill a hole through the center of the mount, tap the bottom plate & run a counter sunk bolt through it. i do a couple extra steps on mine & its lasted a long time on its own with a 500+ 467 stroker, but i eventually added a limiter chain off the driver side head & they both are doing fine after lots of low 11sec drag strip runs. very easy & stealthy to add a limiter chain on these 2nd gen firebirds.

best of luck tracking this tick down!

[glhs#116]

Can someone explain to me how a dowel falls through a main cap?

Sam

[darbikrash]

The dowel is supposed to be a tight press fit in the block side. The cap is a thru hole, and is a tight clearance fit to the pin. If the block side is an improper fit for the pin, loose, etc, in theory the pin could drop out of the cap. Not common but certainly not unheard of.

I would look to see if each main cap dowel is present and accounted for, you can see them if in place as below.



You said you might have left an extra dowel in the assembly, it is not common to have extra main cap dowel during block assembly, did you replace the factory dowels? If so how tight was the block side press fit?

I've always been uncomfortable with this (short) factory dowel arrangement, the best engagement seems to come in tight only with the cap almost all the way flush with the block, and if this is off you will have bearing clearance issues. A longer dowel is available, but I'd think you'd need to align hone if you replaced the short factory pins with the longer ones- so not an option here.

[glhs#116]

My experience with the dowels is that I got the block back from a machine shop with the dowels for #1 and #2 main shoved too far in. I think they let it fall on its face. I was able to pull the #2 dowels back up to the required height with a dowel puller. For #1 they needed drilling and grabbing with a hardened screw and replacing. So I guess the most suspect would be #2 where they were bashed in then pulled back to position. #1 dowels were replaced. However, none felt loose at assembly time..

Sam

[darbikrash]

Ok, I remember you posting that now. Sometimes when main caps are removed/installed numerous times, the pin holes open up or even egg shape. This means the cap can fret, or move ever so slightly relative to the crank. The main bolts hold clamping tension, the pins provide location.

If the cap is moving ever so slightly under load, this can act on the block side of the pin to "work" it. If the press fit in the block is less than perfect, I suppose it (the pin) can come loose. The larger cap hole then makes it easier for the pin to drop out. Again, not common, but possible.

Were you able to 100% confirm all pins were present as installed?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by darbikrash

Ok, I remember you posting that now. Sometimes when main caps are removed/installed numerous times, the pin holes open up or even egg shape. This means the cap can fret, or move ever so slightly relative to the crank. The main bolts hold clamping tension, the pins provide location.

If the cap is moving ever so slightly under load, this can act on the block side of the pin to "work" it. If the press fit in the block is less than perfect, I suppose it (the pin) can come loose. The larger cap hole then makes it easier for the pin to drop out. Again, not common, but possible.

Were you able to 100% confirm all pins were present as installed?

It looks like I will need another session underneath the car to confirm that. All I know is that both dowels were present for #3 cap because I had to remove that to put the dipstick intermediate tube in. Since Jay sent me some extra dowels I can replace one if it is missing but how to make sure it doesn't happen again? A little Loctite on the dowel before driving it in the block?

Also, I presume that if a dowel dropped out I should replace the lower bearing shell for that cap? Because of the presumption that it could have moved slightly. Still, I can't imagine that it would move far. My block has four bolt mains and I would have thought four torqued main cap bolts and one dowel is still quite a bit of stability..

Sam

[Cliff R]

Find out where it came from, put some red Loctite on it, drive it back in, then gently "peen" a little material over it so it can't drop out again, job done.....Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

Wow. Revenge of the Tick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iGSAFjzBd8


Yeah, agree with Darbikrash, at least visually look at the caps and determine if there's one missing. Also, I was under the impression if a pin is replaced, cap fit/orientation needs to be verified, and usually requires a main journal hone, but that may depend.

If the tray is cracked, regardless of where it's cracked, it should be replaced. Personally, I replace OE trays of unknown history even if no cracks are seen, but that's just me, and sure you can get away with reuse, call me paranoid.

If contact was discovered, as in witness marks, I would have shimmed it. My understanding is the 'general' clearance spec desired is 3/16", but in your case, any shim should provide enough clearance.


.

[johnta1]

If you pull the engine again, look at each main cap closely.
If you see a missing dowel in the hole of the main cap, check to make sure the cap isn't cracked there.
Then check the block around the dowel area.
Most of the time I have seen the dowel falling out, the main cap is cracked or the block is cracked. (or both)



I would also not reuse the windage tray. You have a baffled pan.

Hopefully you just dropped a dowel in there. And the 'ticking' is from the crank rubbing the tray.

[Kenth]

455 engines with a windage tray uses a tray with a large 5 stamped on it.
This tray has a thicker mounting "pad" to make clearance the 4.21" stroke crank.
I can´t see that stamped 5 on your tray?

[glhs#116]

Hmm.. So maybe this isn’t a 455 tray? I know the engine was rebuilt once before I owned it..

Sam

[dmac]

Just out of curiosity- Was a stroker crank installed? My block needed a little clearancing on the front driver side of the block for one of the throws. That seems like where you thought the tick could be coming from- near the fuel pump if I recall.. The crank actually fit without clearancing but was nearly touching. If the block hadn't been machined, would this have made a ticking sound possibly as the block heated up, and maybe going through a turn could either increase or decrease the sound as more oil 'sloshed to either side and maybe lubricate the spot where the crank was nearly hitting the block?

This is just a wild idea of what could possibly be creating the tick, and why it would vary in cornering. It will be easy to check when you are checking the dowel pins.