[JohnS66GTO]

Check out ebay item # 2400141099 for a set of VIN & body tags from a '67 GTO, complete with Michigan title. Could be legit, but it's easy enough to claim a lost title on an old car and voila - it's yours! Either way, someone is almost guaranteed to buy these and slap them on a Lemans to fake a GTO.

Buyer of a "supposed" GTO in a year or so with VIN #242177K128266 beware! What some people will do for a couple hundred bucks!

John

[Marty Phipps]

Just let the N.I.C.B.(National Insurance Crime Bureau) and ebay know about this auction.
Selling Vin tags and titles separate is illegal

[JohnS66GTO]

Looks like it's already been pulled from ebay. Searching by item number just returns "unknown item" now.

John

[68ragtop]

Here is another one. What is up with this. How would you feel if you bought a car & found out it was turned into a GTO?

Unreal!

title & vin for sale.

[GDK_1968]

I actually saw one of these and posed a question to eBay about the legality of such a sale, perpetuates fraud.


1969 GTO Restoration

[PMDRACER]

Ebay has proven time and time again they do not care about fraud. They pass themselves off as "Just a sales medium" and nothing more. It's truly buyer's (and seller's) beware on Ebay, and just know that if things go bad, you have no recourse through them at all.

TIGER EFI - Electronic Fuel Injection for the Traditional Pontiac Engine. bill@tigerefi.com

[PonchoV8]

I haven't seen the ads before, but I've heard if a seller advertises it as a novelty or a nostalgia display ONLY, he'll get away with it. Puts the vin, title and picture of a similar car in a display frame and sells it for entertainment only.

Doug

-----------------------------
"...then grease me up woman." Groundskeeper Willie

www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb

['ol Pinion head]

Removal of the VIN is a federal crime.

I know of several VIN & cowl tag thieves, that myself & several other longtime yard owners, specialty service providers, & restorers would love to have pay us a visit...all for our "entertainment purposes"

Got a rope?

[This message was edited by ol' Pinion head on March 10, 2003 at 04:38 PM.]

[PonchoV8]

OPH, I thought it was only illegal to sell it or 'TAG' a car, but okay to remove it. Some restorations require a removal is why I say that. Oh well.

Listen to this sh!t. A local body shop/Pontiac nut around here said he went to a Bristol show and saw a guy with vins and titles on a table for sale. He claims he asked the guy about the legality of it and the guy said he'd been doing it for about 10-12 yrs and never had a problem. I don't know if it's a true story, just parlaying what I heard.

btw, I've seen several GTOs and Camaros with VINs missing in yards. I wonder where they went?

Doug

-----------------------------
"...then grease me up woman." Groundskeeper Willie

www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb

[dreamingmuscle]

Talking about E-bay and Vin tags I seen one where the guy was selling a matching #'s motor and trans to go with the vin tags and title to a 69 GTO.

Thats more than a couple hundred dollars on a good restoration

[hutchersonc]

RE: GTO VIN # locations. Our 67 GTO has been documented #s matching by Pontiac Historic Services. However, the VIN tag is missing - is there somewhere else on the body it might be stamped? Any help would be appreciated! (By me AND the Virginia DMV!) Thanks!

[Jerry H.]

The last portion of your Vin (Plant letter designation and production sequence) will be stamped on the frame rail, behind the drivers side rear wheel. As I remember it is either on the side of the frame OR on the top of the frame. (IF that is the case you will have to raise the car off the frame). Look just behind the body mount on the side and see if you can't find it. Hope you don't have undercoating on the frame. Good luck.

Jerry H.

[68ragtop]

Looks like there is another one out there. I could be wrong, But this seems to hint towards a R/A tag sale.

ebay auction

1968 GTO Convertible
1978 Gold Edition Trans am
1979 10th aniversary T/A
1980 Pace Car Trans am

[64tempest]

Ive got a different twist on this one and Im trying to figure out if Im in the wrong here. Several years ago I got a low milage all original parts car that was rusted way beyond saving as far as body and frame. I saved everything usable including the vin, data plate and title, I still have the complete car except for the frame and body. Had it not been for the door strikers this car would have pulled in half getting it on the trailer, I still have the pics to prove it. This was a rare car and complete, just very very rusty and on its way to the crusher. My plans are to find a restorable rollong shell or a complete car and re-create this car. Ive been in this hobby for along time, Ive seen frames replaced in early convertibles and hard tops, Ive seen western bodys put on eastern rust buckets and that seems to be acceptable. So lets say I was to buy a fairly rust free lemans parts car with or with out a title and
brought this GTO back to life again with a new body, would I be in the wrong. Dont get me wrong I would never sell it with out letting the buyer know what was done, and I know i cant protect later buyers. My question is what would this car be, a fake , a clone, or a restored car? It would be numbers matching and correct, but not the original body or frame, everything else would be as it left the factory.

Id really like to hear all views on this subject. I work in the auto "biz" and see cars in bodyshops that I deal with getting rear clips and body shells to repair newer damaged cars. Ive seen many insurance estimates written for these kind of repairs, so Im guessing it must be somewhat acceptable in the industry of repairs.

Im not sure how legal selling vins and titles would be, and Id never try it myself. But lets say
you have cloned a car, Ill use a 67 GTO for this example, done everything correctly on a LeMans, then find a clean title and vin on e-bay and re-title the car, what do you have then? I agree with the previous post, buyer beware! This is not a new thing to this market, just one that needs some attention. Ive looked at many made up cars and projects, but also seen many that used LeMans and Tempest parts in the restoration, so where do you draw the line? We have PHS to doccument our vin tags, but nothing to protect up from the cars other owners/ builders, remember the 80s when you could go to Carlisle and buy more 69 Trans Ams than they built

[RamAirJohn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 64tempest:
Ive got a different twist on this one and Im trying to figure out if Im in the wrong here.
My plans are to find a restorable rollong shell or a complete car and re-create this car. My question is what would this car be, a fake , a clone, or a restored car? It would be numbers matching and correct, but not the original body or frame, everything else would be as it left the factory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This topic has been covered several times along with re-stamping engine blocks on this Forum and others. This was also discussed by Scott Tieman
(Supercar Specialties) in "Pontiac Enthusiast" magazine. I believe his thoughts are that anything is ok when it comes to restoring a car so long as the date codes are right.

RamAirJohn
Eph. 4:32
Semper Fi
http://members.aol.com:/ramair68/gen1home.html

['ol Pinion head]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RamAirJohn:

This topic has been covered several times along with re-stamping engine blocks on this Forum and others. This was also discussed by Scott Tieman
(Supercar Specialties) in "Pontiac Enthusiast" magazine. I believe his thoughts are that anything is ok when it comes to restoring a car so long as the date codes are right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! John, surely you jest

['ol Pinion head]

Using pieces from other cars sheetmetal or a frame to properly restore a high point car is one thing. This may require quite extensive work. Taking an entire body shell & easily swapping #'s on it is something entirely different! It's fraudulent, & the FED's do not look lightly on this. Try them, I dare anyone.

In the case of taking a LeMans or Tempest bodyshell & adding all the GTO parts, then a GTO VIN, one has a cloned LeMans or Tempest, with the addition of a GTO VIN, period! IF someone was to take that rusty GTO convert & remove the rusty floorboards, rockers, 1/4's, etc, then professionally restore the car (with original cowl & original numbered frame section) using pieces from parts cars & quality repro sources, they would be on a path that is ethical & defendable. Tag-job's, no.

[PonchoV8]

I can't remember the make of car, but there was very low production Bugati or Delahey (sp) made once, and only about 12 of these cars were handbuilt and there are no donor bodies. One was wrecked and totaled in a race way back in the 50s or 60s. Well, a group of guys bought that completely totaled european racecar in the 90s and restored it to original. They had to hand build and immitate the chassis and body panels completely to make a concoures (sp) restored auto and then the rest of that car's owner industry erupted crying foul and saying they can't do it that way since such a small amount of original parts were left on the car. Everyone who knows these cars, knows the events of the 12 car and it's reprise.

Now assume there's a guy, we'll call him 64Tempest, and he has all the goodies from a not as rare GTO, but he doesn't have the original frame and body because they were rusted beyond repair. John goes and buys a like body and frame, maybe they're together, maybe apart. He COMPLETELY disassembles the entire mass and restores it handling every part just like any thorough restoration and reassembles the rare GTO. Some people will never consider it a legit car. I would at least attach an asterisk (sp) to it and include pics of the restoration as it occurred.

There is a documented restoration on the Ultimate GTO site where a guy cut the rear half off his conv GTO and welded the rear half of a Lemans conv on the door jambs back. I think he replaced the floors too. Is that still a GTO even though it has an entire Lemans rear clip/trunk/1/4s/wheelhouses/etc? Yes, to me. Is it still all gto? I guess not. If John got a gto frame and body is it still THE rare gto? Well, not really, but almost. If the parts were so bad already that they were useless and he wanted to restore it, wouldn't he have replaced them anyway? Should he tell anybody? Sure. If he has done a really good job on the restoration, it won't matter that much. It depends on each circumstance.

Don't tag a Lemans (or any other gto/tempest either), buy the best parts you can get and do a full restoration at the least.

Doug

-----------------------------
"...then grease me up woman." Groundskeeper Willie

www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb

[RamAirJohn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
LOL! John, surely you jest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Only stating what was implied in Scott's Editorial on this subject. Additionally, there are many out there who know first hand of rare cars that have been re-bodied/restored by a certain 'Big-Name' in the resto business.

My point is, if those who have a reputation of doing top-notch restorations let it be known that all this 'fuss' about matching-numbers, restamping, rebodying, etc is silly, then where is the line drawn for a standard in the hobby for originality ? Many claim we should follow the Corvette world which re-stamps. Others say no.
Who decides how many or which parts can be replaced before the car becomes something else ?
For the sake of comparision, what really is the difference between a GTO and a LeMans (other than the obvious unique parts)? The Parts Books do not list a GTO floor-pan or GTO Cowl Assy or GTO Frame. Only the Hemi cars had unique body shells with regard to reinforcements, etc.
I'm not taking sides one way or the other; only trying to point out the facts and reality of the topic. We're talking about mass-produced cars that used mass-produced parts. I also think people tend to confuse fraud & clones with restoration. Making something that never was is either a fraud or a clone. Rebuilding/Restoring something that really did and does exist (in any condition, w/paperwork, VIN, etc) does not constitute fraud or cloning.

Example:
'65 GTO- rusted beyond recognition. VIN, Trim Tag and documentation exists.
Owner rebuilds this car using a rust-free '65 LeMans. In the end, no one has created a GTO that never was. Where is the fraud or deception ?
If the restoration is professional and correct, what really is the difference between this and patching up the original rusted GTO ?

Now, when it comes to actually removing a VIN tag and/or Trim Tag and re-attaching it to another car, I would suspect that is illegal although, I would need to see the current legal documentation stating the rules on this matter. Seems strange that the law would allow one to cut around the VIN and graft a portion of the Upper Cowl to another car but not allow the actual removal of the VIN tag alone.

As always, this topic will continue to raise valid points on both sides. Certainly, those who own original cars are justified in arguing against clones and re-body's since this could diminish the value of their car or, it's simply a matter of ethics. Either way, those with the big-bucks and those who charge the big-bucks will continue to 'rescue' and restore rare cars that would otherwise be scrapped. Personally, I would rather see a restored car than hear about the rare one's that were crushed because they were rusted away.

RamAirJohn
Eph. 4:32
Semper Fi
http://members.aol.com:/ramair68/gen1home.html

[pontiarrg]

As a car restorer I Think that you should have at least 30% of the original car to include frame and original cowel. Swapping tags is BS. If you Swap the tags you have ruined the car. no execptions. If I use 2 cars to make one i Include the body tags and title from the other car for historical and legal pourposes.

No GTO doesn't mean garbage truck option!