[Tom Vaught]

Man, Tenney, while I was typing my story you post the pics of the headers I am describing.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

The Red car was more extraordinary to JW because of his subsequent history with it. If he's forgotten details of the Blue car, that would not surprise me in the least.

Think the entire test was a pretty significant undertaking for Jim. It was his concept. He provided the cars. What powered them clearly "mattered". He spec'd the Red Car and selected the Blue Car. And he's pretty clear in his knowledge that the Blue car was powered by a 389.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Man, Tenney, while I was typing my story you post the pics of the headers I am describing.

Tom Vaught

Because I care, Tom!

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Thanks, Don!

Not sure the diameter of the headers, they're boxed up in the garage, but will check. Also uncertain re: when they were built.

Mr. Wangers said the car never had headers while it was with him, though (birth, thru end of August '64).

Yes, the car was cleaned-up and returned to Car and Driver specification by Scott Tiemann while I was looking after it. Paul Zazarine did an excellent write-up on this in the 12/08 issue of Muscle Car Enthusiast.

Wow, great info and thanks for sharing. I didnt realize that Zazzarine(RIP) did an article about it in Muscle Car Review. Ill have to get it as a backorder.
I do have another article that the car is featured in from MCR in which the writer says that the Goat was not in running condition and they had to push it around for the pictures.

Also, do you know if Milt actually stroked the original 428 in the late 80's? Just curious because thats what Milt says in his book.

Also, have you contacted Milt about the car or is that a very sore subject for him considering he figured Sherman would have notwithstanding his untimely death either given or at least sold the car to Milt for all he had done?

Thanks,
Don
BTW I saw the youtube video of you driving the Goat and boy it sounds & looks sweet! You can see the pride in Wangers as he walks near the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIBBa...feature=autofb

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A little story for the members.

I built my car (the 11.55 car) some months before Milt was building the Sherman car. Greg Scharding was helping him with the car. I drove my GTO to the Spring Dust-off at Pontiac Headquarters in Pontiac, Michigan. Dimitrie Toth used to have his 421 SD car there every year and would fire it up with the "dumps" open to get attention.

I had quick disconnect Marmon flanges right after my headers so I dropped the exhaust too and we had a little noise contest. His McKeller #10 camshaft did not sound that great compared to the Comp Cam 255/265 @ .050 .600 lift in mine. The people left Dimitrie Toth's car and came over to see mine.

Milt S was one of the people.

He crawled under the car, over the car, sat in the seat, revved the engine, HE WAS INTERESTED. The exhaust headers were "D-port" to "Round port" adaptor 2" tube JR racing headers with flat collectors.

The front tube went under the front engine cross-member and the rear tube wrapped over the frame.

So I see Milt's car and it is set up similar to mine except he has the front tube go up over the other tubes and then down to the collector vs under the frame. I believe he also used round 4 tube collectors vs my slip-on flat collectors. You can see in Tenney's picture what I mean about the front tube going up.

So I would say that his headers were:
1) Custom front tube headers (similar to jR headers but CUSTOM)
2) 2" diameter pipes
3) Used a adaptor flange to go to the 716 casting heads ported by "Birdie" (The tripower intake was also extensively reworked by "Birdie"

Looking at tenney's pic you can see the 4 bolt adaptor flanges for the center header exhaust ports to the adaptor flange bolted to the head.

Tom Vaught

Hi Tom, thanks for that story. Its very difficult to see how the headers are routed on the 64' in the pics but you explained it well and Mr Tenney posting the pics of them hanging on the shelf makes it that much better to see.

Thanks,
Don

[Old Man Taylor]

Tenney - When did you install that nice air box and air cleaner set up on the car? I don't remember seeing it on there before.

[War eagle]

Thanks Keith. Its all brighter now. The reason no one has ever seen a W on the firewall of a KC built car is that they had electric lights and Pontiac continued to use candles until they closed. Maybe thats why my first project 64 goat built in Pontiac had a blue fender and red fender.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

Wow, great info and thanks for sharing. I didnt realize that Zazzarine(RIP) did an article about it in Muscle Car Review. Ill have to get it as a backorder.
I do have another article that the car is featured in from MCR in which the writer says that the Goat was not in running condition and they had to push it around for the pictures.

Also, do you know if Milt actually stroked the original 428 in the late 80's? Just curious because thats what Milt says in his book.

Also, have you contacted Milt about the car or is that a very sore subject for him considering he figured Sherman would have notwithstanding his untimely death either given or at least sold the car to Milt for all he had done?

Thanks,
Don
BTW I saw the youtube video of you driving the Goat and boy it sounds & looks sweet! You can see the pride in Wangers as he walks near the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIBBa...feature=autofb

Yes, Don, we all got a little extra exercise that day!

I have a receipt that Mr. Sherman had kept from the initial install of the 428 circa 11/17/67 (signed by Milt). Per Paul Z., Milt and Bill went match racing in the late '80's. "'66GTO Jim" posted some cool pics of same. I have no reason to doubt the specs Milt shared in his book. Would make sense he built it up right around then, too.

I did attempt to contact Milt around the time the car came to me in '05. His son replied echoing your report. Though was fortunately able to meet Milt briefly in Dayton at the Co-Vention.

Thanks! That clip is from the Art Center. All credit for the look and racket due the feller strolling along side for bringing it to us in the first place, and Scott Tiemann for returning it to the way he recalled it in the beginning!

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor

Tenney - When did you install that nice air box and air cleaner set up on the car? I don't remember seeing it on there before.

Not sure exactly, OMT. Per Jim, some time post his time with the car. Milt installed it, and explains the way it came about in his book. There was, at one point, three holes in the firewall. But they had been hacked away by the time the car arrived here.

[Dick Boneske]

In 1988, when the POCI nationals were in Wichita, Milt had a red '64 GTO Post Coupe there and it wasn't running as well as he thought it should. We looked at the plugs and saw it was running too lean. I had some extra jets along with me, so we put .073" jets in the end carbs. He ran a 12.17 ET with it that day. It was not a 389. The engine had a '64 Tripower and Super Duty heads. I can't remember for sure, but I think Milt said it was a 428.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

Thanks Keith. Its all brighter now. The reason no one has ever seen a W on the firewall of a KC built car is that they had electric lights and Pontiac continued to use candles until they closed. Maybe thats why my first project 64 goat built in Pontiac had a blue fender and red fender.

lol - usually by the time you get to that point, you're committed. If there's a red fender and a blue fender coming down, the car's going to get built with a red fender and a blue fender.

Coincidentally, the "Fender Set" area of the final line is the area I ran at the Truck plant, many years ago....

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

The reason no one has ever seen a W on the firewall of a KC built car is that they had electric lights and Pontiac continued to use candles until they closed. ..

Also - it does tend to vary by plant, by shift and even by individual operator.

My Pontiac built '65 has no markings on the firewall at all.

FWIW.

K

[MikeNoun]

Great information guys.

Interesting pics here. The Car Life cover photo has the red GTO, no fender mount mirror. Look closely at the plate, it appears to have the 19 and the 015, but what's under the 19? Looks like a rounded letter, maybe a G or C?

Then there's this other pic, which unfortunately I did not mark as to what issue it was. Has the fender mount mirror, and the 19 with 015, and a very clear F under the 19.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Yes, Don, we all got a little extra exercise that day!

I have a receipt that Mr. Sherman had kept from the initial install of the 428 circa 11/17/67 (signed by Milt). Per Paul Z., Milt and Bill went match racing in the late '80's. "'66GTO Jim" posted some cool pics of same. I have no reason to doubt the specs Milt shared in his book. Would make sense he built it up right around then, too.

I did attempt to contact Milt around the time the car came to me in '05. His son replied echoing your report. Though was fortunately able to meet Milt briefly in Dayton at the Co-Vention.

Thanks! That clip is from the Art Center. All credit for the look and racket due the feller strolling along side for bringing it to us in the first place, and Scott Tiemann for returning it to the way he recalled it in the beginning!

Wow, cool pic of the work order for the new motor. I read that theres a correct 421 HO in the Goat now? Did you keep the "428"?

Do you know if the cam in the 421 is correct for the year or is it a modern cam?

I think you did a great service to the Goat and to the Pontiac Community for restoring it back to how it would have been the day it was used for the testing in the C&D article.

BTW what size M&H cheater slicks were put on the car? I saw them on another website.
Thanks again for your sharing,

Don

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

Wow, cool pic of the work order for the new motor. I read that theres a correct 421 HO in the Goat now? Did you keep the "428"?

Do you know if the cam in the 421 is correct for the year or is it a modern cam?

I think you did a great service to the Goat and to the Pontiac Community for restoring it back to how it would have been the day it was used for the testing in the C&D article.

BTW what size M&H cheater slicks were put on the car? I saw them on another website.
Thanks again for your sharing,

Don

428's still handy, yes.

Current cam. Hydraulic. A custom Scott grind.

Thanks! The Milt stuff is pretty cool, for sure (and fun!), and have retained it all. The car had some rust issues - Scott did some killer metal work - and at that point it just seemed to make sense to return it to the way it was when it (and the Blue Car!) made its mark.

Luckily, a lot of stuff was there, so not much of a parts hunt. And kept much of it the way it was (seat still has a small cigarette burn or two!). Still has the 'ol hairline crack in the passenger side taillight, too!

Heads (not SD when it arrived, but w/ 2.02 intakes) and intake are correctly dated, so may be originals. As Tom mentioned, they'd been cleaned up nicely - and out-flowed a set of Ram Air IV heads on Scott's bench.

Really only needed to score a new block (and headliner, carpets, a driver's side quarter and driver's side floor pan!) - and Tom thankfully came through with the original differential (circa '64 4.33's in place - kept those.). 12-bolt/4.56 spool on the shelf, now.

8.00/8.50 - 14 slicks (I think that may be a Keith pic, btw!). 2" Milt headers.

[John V.]

Mike, not much to go on, but I get the sense that the 015 is the "code" for GM or Pontiac specifically. The Mustang had 013, I believe that would be Ford's code. The Shelby hobby offers a repro Cal MFG Plate, shows 014, presumably for Shelby American.

The rest of the tag format is always a number above a letter to the left of the vertical MFG. I suspect that just gave them enough combinations for each manufacturer to have enough available tags.

Just guessing from what I see. The January '64 Motor Trend test of a couple '64 GTO convertibles appear to have the 015 code on the Cal tags. I've also found GTO test reports for a '67 & a '70 GTO, both also had the 015 code on the Cal tags.

Look at the Cal tags on test cars in the old mags, I bet you'll see that each Manufacturer had a specific assigned code. In particular, cars tested by Motor Trend & Car Life seem to have generally worn Cal MFG tags.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by John V.

Mike, not much to go on, but I get the sense that the 015 is the "code" for GM or Pontiac specifically. The Mustang had 013, I believe that would be Ford's code. The Shelby hobby offers a repro Cal MFG Plate, shows 014, presumably for Shelby American.

The rest of the tag format is always a number above a letter to the left of the vertical MFG. I suspect that just gave them enough combinations for each manufacturer to have enough available tags.

Just guessing from what I see. The January '64 Motor Trend test of a couple '64 GTO convertibles appear to have the 015 code on the Cal tags. I've also found GTO test reports for a '67 & a '70 GTO, both also had the 015 code on the Cal tags.

Look at the Cal tags on test cars in the old mags, I bet you'll see that each Manufacturer had a specific assigned code. In particular, cars tested by Motor Trend & Car Life seem to have generally worn Cal MFG tags.

That is correct John. Ford still has special Manufacturer Plates for Test Cars. Lease Cars to employees, Shooters cars, and vehicles like Shuttle vehicles are tagged like normal vehicles.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

I will have to buy Milt's book and have him sign it.

Tom Vaught

I also will say that I remember there was talk of a longer stroke crankshaft being installed in the 428 engine during the time Mr Sherman's 64 GTO was raced by Milt at the Pontiac events so I would say that Milt's story on that deal in his book is accurate.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Really only needed to score a new block (and headliner, carpets, a driver's side quarter and driver's side floor pan!) - and Tom thankfully came through with the original differential (circa '64 4.33's in place - kept those.). 12-bolt/4.56 spool on the shelf, now.

I was glad that I could return the original 4:33 gear and housing to you Tenney, for the car. It served its purpose under my car and I was careful with the rear-end vs the other ones I blew up as I know the Wanger's axle history. I really enjoyed the short you-tube video, the engine sounds really healthy. The only way a 64 GTO should sound.

Tom Vaught

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I will have to buy Milt's book and have him sign it.

Tom Vaught

I also will say that I remember there was talk of a longer stroke crankshaft being installed in the 428 engine during the time Mr Sherman's 64 GTO was raced by Milt at the Pontiac events so I would say that Milt's story on that deal in his book is accurate.

Tom, on page 184 in Milts book, Milt says that he put a 455 crank into the 428 and then bored it out so it would become a 472 cu inch motor. I guess this would have been in 1988 according to the time Bill Sherman had contacted him to bring the Goat back out.

That's also when he upgraded the valves from the 1.92 intake to the 2.02 intake it is now.

I really wish I lived back there to be able to meet and talk shop with you guys. What a learning experience it would be.