[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

OK, I'll play along. Lets go with a regular SS class, rather than a GT, class. That will reduce the hp factor by 4hp. Every little bit helps.

OK, then in order to get by with 9" tires & Stocker type suspension, lets go with a heavier car. There are several '77 Pontiacs, with an NHRA weight of around 4000lbs. So, you could pic any of those, since they'll allow you to add & remove some weight, to better fit a class.

Let's use a 14lb/hp class. 14 x 285hp = 3990lbs. Add 170lbs for driver. Min weight is 4160lbs.

In reg SS, the 14lb/hp class is M. With an auto trans, the SS/MA index is 11.85.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, the car will need to go at least 11.85. 11.75 would be safer, but not absolutely necessary.

So, there you have it. The objective is to see if this engine can be built to legal NHRA SS specs, making enuff power to run 11.85, at 4160lbs. But, the trick is to do it WITHOUT the mega buck heads & huge cam & springs that have been mentioned.

Keep in mind, the car can have a lightened, tricked out TH350, with trans brake & a 2.75 1st gear, a GOOD racing converter for the app, and whatever rear gear is needed.

If for any reason you don't wanna figure using a heavy car, then go with the lightest '77 Bird. Whatever.

The '77 Birds have an NHRA weight of around 3500lbs. So, you could run the 12lb/hp class & the wight would be 12 x 285 =3420 + 170 =3690. That's almost 500 lbs lighter. That would be SS/KA, with an 11.25 index. So, the lighter car would need to go .6 quicker, in order to be just as competitive as the heavier car. At least that's what I figured. As we've all seen, I could be wrong on any of my numbers or calculations.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Got ya. I will stop playing. Maybe you can explain to me how someone who is looking to build a Pontiac SS car would go about deciding what engine, body style, and class would be the best one to build a car for?

Stan

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Got ya. I will stop playing. Maybe you can explain to me how someone who is looking to build a Pontiac SS car would go about deciding what engine, body style, and class would be the best one to build a car for?

Stan

OK Stan, that question don't make any sense at all. Not even a little bit.

I've already mentioned engines & combos that others have run, which have been competitive. I figure those are the best engines to consider. Maybe that makes too much common sense for you.

It's pretty obvious that you & me are not on the same page.

Therefore, with all the respect I can muster, at this time, I respectfully ask you NOT to comment or post on my threads again !

Have a little integrity, & don't post a "parting shot" like most seem to feel the need to do. Be nice, & just leave, please.

Thanks !

[ponyakr]

Yeah, I found a link to all the nat events results up thru 2000. The DRC has 'em from '98-up. So, most all nat events should be covered. Don't know how accurate the lists are.

1st Pontiac SS nat event wins I see are in 1975. This list shows that Jack Mullins won the Spring Nats, the Sports Nats, the US Nats, & was RU at the Summer Nats. I've never read of him winning the Spring Nats race, before. So far, I can't verify that win.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1975

Jack won the Sports Nats again in '76, and was RU @ the Spring Nats & World Finals.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1976

May have seen this before & it just didn't register. I'd mentioned the Larry Pacey SS wagon that held a record for 14 years. Well this post says that the wagon won 37 points races, in a row. That's real hard to believe. Can anybody verify this ?

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=175

Anyhow, those were 2 bad Pontiac SS wagons !

[ponyakr]

In '77, Pontiacs picked up 3 nat event wins. Bob Michael won the Spring Nats. Sonny Ray won the Sports Nats, & John Herslow won the Canadian Grandnational.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1977

In '79, Sonny won the Cajun Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1979

In '80, Phil Szupka got RU @ the Grandnational, & Bob Michael got RU @ the Summer Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1980

In '81, Sonny got RU @ the Gators.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1981

In '82, Bob Michael got RU @ the Spring Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1982

In '83, David Rampy won his 1st nat event, @ the Cajun Nats, in Sonny Ray's '72 GTO. John Angeles was RU @ the Golden Gate Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1983

In '86, and later, there are some names that were associated with Pontiacs at some point during their racing careers. But, I don't know how many, if any, were driving a Pontiac in any of these races. One or these is Ray Stover, who drove the Kathy's Clown Pontiac GTO.

On this '86 list, Ray is listed as SS winner @ the Spring Nats. So, was he driving a Pontiac ?

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1986

In '87, Mike McKinney won SS, @ the Southern Nats, & the Keystone Nats. Assuming he was still driving a '68 Bird.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1987

In 1990, Sal Biondo got his 1st nat event win, at the Summer Nats, in Phil Monteith's '76 Bird. All the Biondo guys won races in Phill Monteith Pontiacs.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1990

On the '91 list, the only car I'm pretty sure of is Art Peterson. Assume he was driving his '69 GTO. He got RU @ the Winston Finals race. Sal Biondo is listed as winner & RU of lots of races over the years. But all the Biondo guys drove lots of different cars. So, from these lists, I can't tell for sure whether they were driving a Pontiac powered car, or not.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1991

In '92, Mike McKinney got RU @ the Mid-South Nats. I assume he continued to drive Pontiac powered SS cars.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1992

In '94, Art Peterson won the Winter Nats. I'm glad to see that. Most everybody seems to think Art & his wife are real nice folks ! And, it doesn't hurt that he drives my favorite Goat, a '69. As mentioned, there are are names on these lists of guys who drove several different brands of cars. Sal & Peter Biondo are a couple, who drove Pontiacs, sometimes. Peter is shown winning a race in '94. I know that Peter began driving the '82 Hatari Bird, at some point, before Bruce Fulper got it. Then he later drove the 4th gen Hatari. But, there is no way for me to tell what they were driving, just from lookin at these lists. Any help with that would be appreciated.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1994

Peter & Sal picked up some more wins & RU's in '95 thru '97. Don't know what they were driving.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1995

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1996

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1997

The 1998 & up results are on DRC.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/Seri...es=NHRA-SUMMIT

[ponyakr]

Somebody just sent me these pics. I thought they were very cool !

It's Gold & appears to be sponored by Golden United life insurance company, or maybe just one of their agents. Anyhow, the gold color & sponsor name works for me.

It's an early '70's Formy Super Stocker. Appears to be what I call a small tire Super Stocker. It also has slappper bars.

Back in the old days, I think the rules were that you could run the biggest slicks that would fit the stock wheel well, without the tire tread sticking out past the body, at the top of the wheel opening.

Later, the rules were changed to allow narrowed rear ends, big wheel tubs, 14 x 32 slicks, and either ladder bars or 4-link suspension. Don't know exactly what year all the rear tire & suspension rules evolved into what they are today.

[spectramitch]

My father had this book from back in the day. Not sure how much has changed since 1981. There is a ton of interesting info in it.

https://www.amazon.com/Pontiac-Racer.../dp/B0006YSIDQ

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by spectramitch

My father had this book from back in the day. Not sure how much has changed since 1981. There is a ton of interesting info in it.

https://www.amazon.com/Pontiac-Racer.../dp/B0006YSIDQ

Yeah, I had one of those. Lots of good info. One of the writers, John Angeles, built the '69 RAIV Bird which is said have been the first non-GT class Pontiac Super Stocker to dip into the 9's. Did it back in 2000, IIRC. His daughter, Keri Angeles was driving. She has continued to drive it, at a few West coast races, in recent years. I think it got down into the 9.60's at one point.

[johnta1]

Thanks for those Formula pics!
I have never seen that car, and it's from Div 3.

Did a search for that insurance company. Very cool finding:

Golden United

Is there anyway to find out who the driver is from the car #?
Seems it used to be able to, but that would be before 9-11.

My Formula looked like that except for I had Keystones.

[ponyakr]

"...Is there anyway to find out who the driver is from the car #?..."


OK, got the lowdown on that gold Bird. It belonged to Bob Michael.

Here's a quote from him.

"...The gold Firebird was my '72 455 HO Formula. I later painted it black and updated it to a '73 455 SD, raced it until 1980 and sold it to Don Kennedy. It was my brother Jerry's Insurance Company. Those were the days!! "

I suppose it's just a coincidence. But I think Don now sells insurance.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

OK, then in order to get by with 9" tires & Stocker type suspension, lets go with a heavier car. There are several '77 Pontiacs, with an NHRA weight of around 4000lbs. So, you could pic any of those, since they'll allow you to add & remove some weight, to better fit a class.

Let's use a 14lb/hp class. 14 x 285hp = 3990lbs. Add 170lbs for driver. Min weight is 4160lbs.

In reg SS, the 14lb/hp class is M. With an auto trans, the SS/MA index is 11.85.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, the car will need to go at least 11.85. 11.75 would be safer, but not absolutely necessary.

So, there you have it. The objective is to see if this engine can be built to legal NHRA SS specs, making enuff power to run 11.85, at 4160lbs. But, the trick is to do it WITHOUT the mega buck heads & huge cam & springs that have been mentioned.

Keep in mind, the car can have a lightened, tricked out TH350, with trans brake & a 2.75 1st gear, a GOOD racing converter for the app, and whatever rear gear is needed.

I know you want best engine / best body combo answer .
I don't have that knowledge.

But, i DO have a 77 Catalina Wagon we could use as the base platform.
Poncho Wagons have a string of success - wanna go with that for now ?

301 2bbl Auto AC Cruise Tilt 15'' Rally2's ... otherwise plain base Cat wagon.
Rust free body per-se' , but hard case of surface rust on hood/roof [factory paint car].

Which D-Port engine do we/us/our $pon$or want to use ?
I probably have at least one of about everything

$pon$er could be a funeral service provider - and dress it like a Hearse with balsa wood casket in back.
Some kind of catchy nick-name should be easy.

Go ?

[johnta1]

"...The gold Firebird was my '72 455 HO Formula. I later painted it black and updated it to a '73 455 SD, raced it until 1980 and sold it to Don Kennedy. It was my brother Jerry's Insurance Company. Those were the days!! "

I suppose it's just a coincidence. But I think Don now sells insurance.

Thanks!


Was his brother the one who started Compuserve or a different Golden United?

[ponyakr]

"...$pon$er could be a funeral service provider - and dress it like a Hearse with balsa wood casket in back.
Some kind of catchy nick-name should be easy..."

Is this some kind of a joke ?

For now, I'm gonna ASSUME that was just a bit of humor thrown in, & proceed.

I agree that there have been LOTS of competitive Pontiac wagons thru the years. I've mentioned that my 1st Pontiac Super Stock hero was Jack Mullins, in his screamin 389 4-speed Catalina wagon. There have been many competitive wagons since that time.

Just last year, Gary Riley won Stock @ a nat event, with his '74 Lemans wagon. Then, of course there were the Tons-a-Fun '72 Lemans wagons.

Anyhow, I see no reason why a '77 Pontiac wagon couldn't be made into a competitive Super Stocker. Bob Michael has built a couple of very competitive '77 Stockers using a Lemans body & a Catalina body.

A look at the car list for the '77 180hp engine, shows that all the bigger cars have exactly the same wheel base, of 116". And that includes the wagons. Since I assume the wagons have a little more of the weight farther behind the rear wheels, I see no reason why a wagon would not be a good choice.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

As for the engine itself, I assume there would really be no difference, or at least VERY little, in it's build specs, regardless of which '77 body you chose.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

You'd have to choose your converter/trans/rear gear specs according to the weight of the vehicle, and the cam used. Obviously, for a heavier car, more gear would be required for the launch. But, you wouldn't want so much gear that it actually slows the ET, by running out of steam too soon, on the big end.

I don't have a clue what the best rear gear would be. But, a 2.75 1st gear ratio would help some.

Would make a cool project to build a low budget SS engine for that wagon, then use it as a test mule, running brackets at a local track. Could establish a baseline, then add upgrades, one at a time, to see exactly what it would take to get it down to the SS index.

Would have to be a serious build. A low compression 400 ain't gonna push a 4000lb + wagon to an 11.85 ET, without all the right pieces.

I suppose the trans, converter, & rear gear would be the easiest pieces to figure out, for the baseline build.

The big questions will be exactly how much head work & cam will be needed.

For the heads, they'd need longer valves, so various springs could be used, as required. They'd obviously need the correct valve job performed by someone who knows whats needed.

Since the heads will need to be cut down to the min chamber size, the intake surface of the heads will also need to be cut down, at least the same amount. I've read that .100 is OK, on the intake side, and will allow the ports to be enlarged slightly more, without going over the max port volume. I think you are allowed to cut that side of the head right up to, but not into the valve cover bolt holes. Maybe others here can clarify that rule for us.

A decision that would have to be made is what cam/lifters/springs to start out with. Well, from what I've read, even Stocker cams for 400 cube engines have at least 250° @ .050. So, there are several ways to go.

(1) Buy a BIG HFT cam, with fairly slow ramps, so you could use reasonable spring pressure, and use Rhoads V-Max lifters.

(2) Go with a bigger SFT cam, but still with fairly slow ramps, to require less spring pressure.

(3) Go with a HR roller cam, but with solid roller lifters. That way, you could begin with a fairly mild grind, which doesn't require huge spring pressure, or a lifter bore brace. Can probably even buy some good used HR roller cams, from guys who have gone bigger.

By going with a roller, you can go bigger with cam & springs, only if necessary. Having a roller will mean that the cam is the only part that will have to be changed, unless the next cam requires stronger springs. By moving up one step at a time, you'll know exactly how much each cam will change ET.

Sounds like a fun project. Wish I had the money & equipment for such a project. For just the right person, it could be fun. You wouldn't even have to live close to a track that runs SS.

There are no tracks that run class in my area. It's a several hour pull to the closest. But, for testing purposes, a bracket track will do. I assume there are bracket tracks in most areas of the country. Most of the tracks we raced are closed. But, we still have one near Monroe, LA, & another in Prescott Ark.

They built a real nice track just North of Shreveport. Use to have 1 div 4 points race per year there. Even had a "Pinks All Out" race there. Anybody remember those ? They were VERY popular, for a time. I even attended that race. Only time I've been to the track. I was impressed. Had no idea it was that nice of a track.

But, they've had all sorts of problems there. Don't know if it'll ever make a come-back or not.

https://performanceracing.com/news/t...la-close-doors

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I know you want best engine / best body combo answer .
I don't have that knowledge.

But, i DO have a 77 Catalina Wagon we could use as the base platform.
Poncho Wagons have a string of success - wanna go with that for now ?

301 2bbl Auto AC Cruise Tilt 15'' Rally2's ... otherwise plain base Cat wagon.
Rust free body per-se' , but hard case of surface rust on hood/roof [factory paint car].

Which D-Port engine do we/us/our $pon$or want to use ?
I probably have at least one of about everything

$pon$er could be a funeral service provider - and dress it like a Hearse with balsa wood casket in back.
Some kind of catchy nick-name should be easy.

Go ?

I don't remember many of the details but seem to remember someone having some success with a 301 combination although I don't think it was a wagon.

Stan

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

ahhh
thought we could mix the body - and engine - then go by weight and engine factored HP for a class. That's how much/little i know about racing.

Was sort of serious about the Hearse idea - gonna hafta have a $pon$or .
Need Mo'Money
Plumbers Wagon maybe ?

Not sure if you could get a 400 in 77 Cat Wagon, if that matters too ?
Need to do something with this wagon besides using it for a storage bin.
Would have been fun
Not much faith in a budgeted 77 400 low compression rule book build going 11.85 without some big cheating

There is a fairly decent 68 Cat wagon near me for sale - fairly reasonable.
And i have a 68 428 block and some 68 #16 heads
2 eighth mile tracks close by , then Charlotte and VMP within couple hours each way.

So there's 2 cars if any of you want to work out the hypothesis / potential

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Maybe KRAFT for a sponsor
they have Catalina salad dressing
Big Time stuff going on round here now $$$

[ponyakr]

"...thought we could mix the body - and engine - then go by weight and engine factored HP for a class..."

Yes. You can run GT. That will allow you to put the '77 400 into most any GM body. But, as mentioned, if you do that, the NHRA hp factor is 4hp higher. That means that in GT, you'd have to run a little more weight, which would slow the car slightly.

"...Not sure if you could get a 400 in 77 Cat Wagon, if that matters too ?..."

Yes, I posted the NHRA list of cars they say you can legally run that 400 engine in. Includes several different kinds of wagons, including both 2 & 3-seat Cat wagons.

SS hp for this engine in all these '77 bodies is 285. In other GM bodies you'd have to run GT, with a 289hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

You can find these numbers just below half way of this page. Under S/S Auto, is the number 285. Under GT Auto, is the number 289.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

At last years US Nats, Bob Michael turned an 11.73 in his '77 Cat Stocker, in L/SA. he's #107 on the Q-list.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

L is a 13.50lb/hp class. So, his car had to weigh 13.50 x 285hp = 3847.5lb + 170 for driver = 4017.5lbs total min for car & driver.

The max lift of his cam is .364 @ the valve, with 1.5 rockers. Guessing that a much better cam & intake will make a bit more power.

[ponyakr]

Have to make a correction.

The NHRA hp factor for Stock, for that engine(except in a Bird) is only 260hp.

So, Bob's Stocker would have been lighter than I calculated.

Just thought I'd better correct that before somebody makes a big deal about it.

In a Bird, the Stock factor is 283hp. That's why so many have quit running a '77 Bird 400, in Stock.

I suppose a 350 is now more competitive in a '77 Bird Stocker, & maybe a Super Stocker also, @ a 246hp factor.

Not trying to confuse anybody. Just mentioning that there are more than one possible competitive Pontiac engines.

[Stan Weiss]

I just found a little more information about the 301 I was trying to remember. It was a turbo and ran P and Q Stock automatic. Here is a link

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=68518

go to the bottom of the page "Top Guns" of N.H.R.A. Stock Eliminator 2001 (FINAL) #6 and #8 Neil Smedley

Stan

[ponyakr]

"...There is a fairly decent 68 Cat wagon near me for sale - fairly reasonable.
And i have a 68 428 block and some 68 #16 heads..."


The problem with that is that, ACCORDING TO NHRA, The #16 heads are NOT legal for a '68 428 engine.

For NHRA racing, you have to go by NHRA rules. NHRA says you can run either #216 heads, or the Edelbrock alum heads they have approved as replacements, for SS.

But, that's a good thing, because as has already been mentioned in this thread, NHRA has given those #216 heads a VERY liberal max port volume.

With 65cc chambers, & ports correctly ported out near max port volume, you've got a big cube high compression engine, with a LOT of power potential. And the NHRA hp factor is only 320hp with iron heads & 330 with E-heads. Same factor for SS & GT. So, there's no advantage to running a '68 body that could have actually come with a 428. To me, that makes the '68 428 engine THE most competitive of all possible SS engines.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

I suppose these are reasons why so many guys are running a 428, in SS, including a couple of really quick little Cobalts. As I've mentioned, both those Cobalts have been class winners at Indy. One of 'em ran an 8.90 ! Don Kennedy also runs one in his Sunfire, & won his GT/EA class at Indy, in 2019. Todd Frantz won the GT/FA class, in his 428 Cobalt. As mentioned earlier, Carroll Warling is building an iron head 428, for this season. Lookin forward to seeing how it does.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Just out of curiosity, anybody out there have a set of #216 heads ? I've never seen a set, or even a picture of a set. I did have some #215 heads, which came on the Ventura bracket car I bought. That's the only set of those I've ever seen. Just assuming that #216 heads are quite rare. That's probably one reason why so few have built iron head 428's for SS, but use the E-heads, instead. If using E-heads, you can build a 428 SS engine without using a single GM part, since the aftermarket iron blocks are legal.

This may explain why so few #216 heads exist. " very early castings of the #16 heads had #216 on the end port not #16 on the center ports. "

Apparently, the #216 heads came on some 400 & 428 early '68 model engines.

http://pontiachunters.com/pontiac_cylinder_heads.shtml

[ponyakr]

WOW !

I JUST saw this. If this Class Racer Info is correct, effective 1/1/20, the #216 iron head '68 390hp 428 engine has an NHRA hp factor of only 312hp, in GT Auto !

To me, that definitely makes it the most competitive Pontiac SS engine combo, in GT.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Lots of interesting things about the specs NHRA has for the Pontiac 428. Like in '69, the E-heads are not legal, for a 428, but are, for the RAIV engines.