[Stan Weiss]

From my understanding. NHRA will lower an engines HP factor is if the average runs for that combination over a given time period are below a set baseline off of its index. In other words nobody is running really fast with that combination. But from what I understood people were running good with the 428 combination. So I am confused by this.

Stan

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Just out of curiosity, anybody out there have a set of #216 heads ? I've never seen a set, or even a picture of a set.

Probably a damn good reason for that ...

There was only one kind of #16 head in 1968
Came on ALL the 428 engines that year - it was The ONLY head that came on 428's in 1968 .

Also all the 350hp and 360hp GTO's , and parallel 400 Birds.
Heavily mass produced production head, no way its not legal by NHRA.

If NHRA wants to call them #216 , thats okay

Probably its the last 3 numbers of the 7-8 digit full GM part number for the 1968 #16 head.
Another form of their cross-checking against the 3 different styles/variations of #16 heads that Pontiac produced in
1968 big valve
1970 small valve
1973-74 SuperDuper


We are over the first hurdle with the 428 YK Block and 16/216 Heads
Feel a LOT better about that than a 77 400/6X or 301/01

Only bodies i would donate at this time are the 77 Catwagon, 84 Fiero, 65 Tempest 4door.
Without a Catalina - we won't have a chance at the KRAFT salad dressing sponsorship though.

[ponyakr]

"...Probably a damn good reason for that ...

There was only one kind of #16 head in 1968
Came on ALL the 428 engines that year - it was The ONLY head that came on 428's in 1968..."


I'm sorry. But that is just NOT the truth !

It has been posted that SOME early '68 engines came with #216 heads. Those heads did NOT have the numbers 1 & 6 over the center exhaust ports. It is said that the number 216 was over one of the end ports.

I'm not posting this because I have seen any of these heads. I haven't. But I HAVE owned a set of #215 heads. The #215 heads were used on some engines, EARLY in the model year, before the #15 heads were used, just as the #216 heads were used on some engines, early in the model year, before the #16 heads were used.

Why Pontiac cast the early heads with 3 digit numbers & the later heads with 2-digit numbers, I have no idea.

Anyhow, if an NHRA tech checks the port volume of the number 16 heads, the port volumes must be quite a bit smaller than the port volumes of the #216 heads. #216 heads DO exist ! They actually came on some 400 & 428 engines. I'm not makin this up. There are several online sources that list the #216 heads.

http://www.bassettracing.cz28.com/custom3.html

http://wallaceracing.com/head1.htm

http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference...kheadspecs.htm

http://pontiachunters.com/pontiac_cylinder_heads.shtml

https://www.nookandtranny.com/TechIn...ntHeadCastings

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/heads.html

This guy says he had a set of #216 heads on his engine. Even posted the date codes. They were cast back in mid '67.

https://www.gtoforum.com/threads/16-...-heads.127497/

If anyone wants to claim these heads never existed, that's OK with me. These online sources I've linked say they did exist.

Not gonna quarrel with anybody about it. I don't have a set. So I can't prove that a set ever existed. Hope nobody ever junked a set, thinking they were no good.

[Stan Weiss]

While this source shows the 216 in "67 it also show a 670 in '64. http://pontiachunters.com/pontiac_cylinder_heads.shtml

Stan

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Its not a quarrel - its just a confusing of numbers/part numbers.

I'm way more involved with numbers and restorations - than racing.
The 216 will be the standard issue 16 , don't let it be a hurdle to you anymore.

Look at your Basset racing web link and Wallace link
16/216 is the same head - hello ?

Some early 69 Ram IV heads briefly had the full part number cast on the ends, then went to just 722. But they are the same head.
And both will pass Tech
Same with this 216/16

The only difference is - no one in the whole PY Pontiac brain-trust has ever seen a set of 216 numbered heads.

The problem with that is that, ACCORDING TO NHRA, The #16 heads are NOT legal for a '68 428 engine.

That is what brought us to this topic.
Its not an Issue -- i can guarantee

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

While this source shows the 216 in "67 it also show a 670 in '64.
Stan

Beautiful
just lovely

wonder how this stuff confuses the internet peoples like it does .......

[ponyakr]

Finally got a guy to post a pic of a #216 head he has.

So, is there anybody here who still thinks these heads do not exist ?

Date code looks to be E087, maybe. So, it makes sense that this head could have come on an early '68 year model engine. I assume they began building engines for '68 model cars, by no later than early summer of '67. Does that sound about right ? I assume they had to start shipping cars out to dealers in late summer, or very early Sept. Don't know exactly when the 1st 1968 model Pontiac was sold.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Its always good to see a hen tooth !

They were still casting 1967 model year pieces through July 67

216 was the pre-production pilot casting to the 16 production head.
Same exact head as the common 16
Mostly only pre-production assembled pilot cars would have gotten that head.

What NHRA wants / approves are true factory assembly combos
16's are a non-issue on a 428

99.999 - 100 percent of 1968 428 engines came with 16 heads.
Maybe ALL was 0.001 percent too strong
But no one has produced a complete virgin 428 with 216's .... yet
soooo
anyway

do you still disagree with my YK/16 428 engine being legal ?
That was really the main conflict wasn't it > ?

Check with the guys in the 67-79 Fullsize section who own 68 428 cars
16 heads are the standard

[ponyakr]

You can argue with NHRA if you want to. I don't have a problem with that.

As for me, I can read the NHRA specs, which say the #216 heads are the heads that are legal. No mention of the #16 heads. I did NOT make the NHRA rules.

If you have a problem with it, take it up with them.

But there are a couple of guys building 428 SS engines with the #216 heads, so they'll be in compliance with the rule book. They would probably prefer you didn't say anything to NHRA that would mess up their build.

Just happened to think of this. For those who prefer to run the #16 heads, you can claim a '69 390hp 428 & run either #16 or #48 heads. Only problem is they have a smaller NHRA legal port volume, and the NHRA hp factor for GT Auto is 320hp, instead of 312hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

You can also claim a '67 428 & run 670 heads.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

If you claim a '68 390hp 428, you can run either #216 or #64 heads. I think we all know that #64 heads were used on some 1970 455 engines. Never read anywhere that they came on a 428. But, if you play in the NHRA sandbox, you have to play by NHRA rules.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Here is a better pick that was just posted of a #216 head.

[Stan Weiss]

You can say I am just being argumentative or just ignore me.

I had a problem with the first picture not looking like 216 but it was a bad picture.

Thanks for the better picture. But this one clearly does not look like 216 to me.

Stan

[ponyakr]

Here's a quote from one guy.

"...they a very early 68s and usually found in big cars according to Pete McCarthy."

Many years back, SOME thought Pete McCarthy knew a lot about Pontiacs. Most know that he & John Angeles wrote a book or 2 about Pontiacs. I had one of those books, but no longer have it.

I know some of you guys still have a copy. Would somebody please look in it & see if the #216 heads are mentioned ?

Here are 2 pics of 216 heads. But, there is so much rust in the 1st pic, the 1 is not still visible, at least not to me.

I suppose that, especially after a lot of rust has worked on 'em for a long time, some of the numbers Pontiac cast as a number 6 could have looked more like an 8. The 3rd pic is of a 670 head. You can clearly see that the 6 could have looked more like an 8, if more rust had worked on it. & how about this #16 head with the number over 1 port only. That 6 could also look like an 8, with more rust damage. And I suppose more rust could make this 6H look like an 8H.

[ponyakr]

This has very little, if anything to do with this thread.

But, while lookin thru my pics of Pontiac heads, I found one with a long number cast on it. Wondered why I kept it. So I plugged it into the Wallace engine ID site.

#540306

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

Seems those heads were used on some of the 389SD & 421SD engines. Looks like they may have been the heads that were shipped in the trunk of some '61 Pontiacs, so the owner could upgrade to SD ? Says they were sold over the counter.

But, I'm sure there are LOTS of guys here who know far more about the old SD engines than me.

Here's also another pic of a really rusty 216 head.

[johnta1]

From McCarthy's book:

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by johnta1

From McCarthy's book:

THANKS for posting that !!!

But again, you guys can believe whatever you want, about #216 heads.

They existed. They came on a FEW engines. Some still exist today. And NHRA calls for 'em on certain 428 engines.

Believe it, or not.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

[ponyakr]

Now, as said, with what I have learned so far, I think the #216 head 428, @ 312hp, in GT Auto, might be the most competitive Pontiac SS combo.

But, we have to look at the Pontiac SS cars that are most competitive now. Next to the 428 powered cars, I assume that Bill Rink's 350 powered '74 GTO & Mike Morgan's 350 powered '77 Formy, may be the 2 most competitive Pontiacs out there.

They have been fighting it out for the class win at Indy, the last couple of years.

The '74 350 uses #46 heads, & has a SS hp factor of 250hp, in a '74 Ventura. In any other body, the hp factor is higher. And it's 256hp, for GT Auto. So, running a '74 Ventura body would provide a weight advantage. I look at it as "free" ET.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

It's the same with the '77 350. The hp factor is lower, in a '77 Bird body, @ 246hp. It's 250hp in any other body.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

Both these 350's have their advantages. NHRA allows the '74 to run smaller chambers, therefore more CR. But, the '77 can run bigger intake valves. Also, the 6X heads are allowed larger port volumes than the #46 or 4C heads. Also, the '77 can run an 800cfm Q-jet. '74 only allowed a 750. Don't have a clue how much difference that would make. I assume Cliff would know.

Everybody here knows I'm no expert. But, with all things considered, I'd say the '77 350, in a '77 Bird would be the best choice. Considering the performance of the 2 cars mentioned, it is a pretty close race.

Same with 400's. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been the most competitive for quite a few years. Lots of GT cars have used these engines. In the next post, I'll list some info I got from a guy who use to run a pretty quick 400 powered GT car.

[ponyakr]

OK, I got this info on a FB message. It was sorta run together. So, I'll copy & paste, then try to make it a little easier to read. So, it won't be an EXACT copy of what he posted. As you'll see, he ran a big solid roller & didn't say much about a slower build.

"My 400 was not a big dollar motor. The info I give you is completely honest and is 1/3 of what a small block Chevy cost. I raced that car 14 seasons. Won div 1 championship. #5 national in 2002. This combo was super low maintenance . Don't settle for index you can run 8-9 under pretty easy. OK, block 2 bolt main, filled to timing cover, stock caps, no studs, .060 over, zero deck, pre-73 cast crank was heat treated. I know your wondering how a lot of people did. Pontiac size Eagle rods, Ross Pistons, 090 tool steel pins, ram 4 oil pump. No big tricks, basic machine work. These are the parts that I ran 14 seasons, no bs. I built this motor and ported my own heads. First time out at Nat event e town GT/GA 10.22 130 mph. Won class and semis. Torker intake, no radials in 2001.

Port volumes 160 intake, 144 ex. Cut intake flange 80-100 thou. Raise intake runner to ram 4 size. Leave pushrods bulge alone. Bowl work mostly. Short turn on IN & EX smooth, don't cut it down. Multi angle valve job. Basic stuff. Cam started with Lunati 281° @ .050, 104 LSA, .645 lift ex with 1.5 rocker. .705 intake with 1.65 rocker. Still have the cam. 5.20 length valves. Double springs DO NOT hold up. Put the triples on. They last forever. 300lbs on the seat. I know it seems like a lot. I'm cheap. Buy them once. The final cam picked it up a tenth and 1.5-2 mph. 286°@ ,050, 107 LSA, advanced 2 degrees. .745 lift on intake. Still no broken parts. No rocker shaft. Just basic stud girdle. Lifter brace bolt in unit Kauffman or Butler. MSD dist, rear location. Crank trigger 7AL. 8" ATI converter, TH400 with brake, as I own a trans shop. 5.14 gears. 14x32L Hoosiers for bracket mode. 13.5x32 Hoosier radials for heads up runs. 4 link susoension. Stefs oil pan with kick out. Pan is worth .15 hundredths. Cheap hp at this stage. Worth 2 tenths on my 66 gto with 482 motor. 9.28 @ 142. The best part of this car was racing heads up for class when there were $30000 small blocks. Even at the 1000 ft mark, from 7500-8000, it just pulls away. 134-135 and it lives.

Cylinder heads sent out after the first couple seasons. 4X 275hp rating. 9.80's in good air, @ 134-135mph. GT/GA. But you could 10.0's with basic heads as I described above. Nothing real trick. Machine work is so important. I ran a lot of oil in it. 8 QTS 15-40 for bracket mode. Most proud of the longevity of it. 5 QTS 5-30 syn, for heads up runs. "

With a quick search, the best time I could find for this car is a 9.94, which was more than a sec under, & good enuff for #11 @ the 2003 E-town Super Nats.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

Now, as for how much slower it would be without the big cam & springs, I don't know.

But, maybe some of this info will help some understand a little better how these cars go so quick.

[johnta1]

Cam started with Lunati 281° @ .050, 104 LSA, .645 lift ex with 1.5 rocker. .705 intake with 1.65 rocker. Still have the cam. 5.20 length valves. Double springs DO NOT hold up. Put the triples on.

That sounds about like the cam I ran forever with the SD 455 engine except I think mine was Comp Cam.
(what HO Racing used basically in there car at time)

And I used the '999' triple springs then put them on the RA IV heads with that cam and still ran awesome.

[Stan Weiss]

OK let me clarify where I stand here. I have no knowledge of if there was or was not a #216 head. What I have said was that the pictures that have been posted to me did not look like 216. I have talked with Dwight (Southerland) from http://www.classracerinfo.com a number of times (never about the #216 head). He has come across as someone who does a lot of research before he posts anything. So from that I would tend to think there was a #216 head.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

OK, I got this info on a FB message. It was sorta run together. So, I'll copy & paste, then try to make it a little easier to read. So, it won't be an EXACT copy of what he posted. As you'll see, he ran a big solid roller & didn't say much about a slower build.

"My 400 was not a big dollar motor. The info I give you is completely honest and is 1/3 of what a small block Chevy cost. I raced that car 14 seasons. Won div 1 championship. #5 national in 2002. This combo was super low maintenance . Don't settle for index you can run 8-9 under pretty easy. OK, block 2 bolt main, filled to timing cover, stock caps, no studs, .060 over, zero deck, pre-73 cast crank was heat treated. I know your wondering how a lot of people did. Pontiac size Eagle rods, Ross Pistons, 090 tool steel pins, ram 4 oil pump. No big tricks, basic machine work. These are the parts that I ran 14 seasons, no bs. I built this motor and ported my own heads. First time out at Nat event e town GT/GA 10.22 130 mph. Won class and semis. Torker intake, no radials in 2001.

Port volumes 160 intake, 144 ex. Cut intake flange 80-100 thou. Raise intake runner to ram 4 size. Leave pushrods bulge alone. Bowl work mostly. Short turn on IN & EX smooth, don't cut it down. Multi angle valve job. Basic stuff. Cam started with Lunati 281° @ .050, 104 LSA, .645 lift ex with 1.5 rocker. .705 intake with 1.65 rocker. Still have the cam. 5.20 length valves. Double springs DO NOT hold up. Put the triples on. They last forever. 300lbs on the seat. I know it seems like a lot. I'm cheap. Buy them once. The final cam picked it up a tenth and 1.5-2 mph. 286°@ ,050, 107 LSA, advanced 2 degrees. .745 lift on intake. Still no broken parts. No rocker shaft. Just basic stud girdle. Lifter brace bolt in unit Kauffman or Butler. MSD dist, rear location. Crank trigger 7AL. 8" ATI converter, TH400 with brake, as I own a trans shop. 5.14 gears. 14x32L Hoosiers for bracket mode. 13.5x32 Hoosier radials for heads up runs. 4 link susoension. Stefs oil pan with kick out. Pan is worth .15 hundredths. Cheap hp at this stage. Worth 2 tenths on my 66 gto with 482 motor. 9.28 @ 142. The best part of this car was racing heads up for class when there were $30000 small blocks. Even at the 1000 ft mark, from 7500-8000, it just pulls away. 134-135 and it lives.

Cylinder heads sent out after the first couple seasons. 4X 275hp rating. 9.80's in good air, @ 134-135mph. GT/GA. But you could 10.0's with basic heads as I described above. Nothing real trick. Machine work is so important. I ran a lot of oil in it. 8 QTS 15-40 for bracket mode. Most proud of the longevity of it. 5 QTS 5-30 syn, for heads up runs. "

With a quick search, the best time I could find for this car is a 9.94, which was more than a sec under, & good enuff for #11 @ the 2003 E-town Super Nats.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

Now, as for how much slower it would be without the big cam & springs, I don't know.

But, maybe some of this info will help some understand a little better how these cars go so quick.

Could not agree more. This is where you will see the best result from the cc's removed.

Stan

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

They would probably prefer you didn't say anything

Mums the word
I was ignoring the physical specs and allowed substitute spec listed.
Its a fine combo
needs to stay as is .

I am out of KRAFT racing , and out of this thread