[Half-Inch Stud]

haven't visited said website in YEARS. Thought it was morgue with tumbleweeds & dust bunnies. might have to go check it out now. BRB

[Pitch 400]

You guys comparing him to Bruce F?

[WDCreech]

Originally Posted by 70pontiaction

It kinda sounds like that noise you make when you are trying to get rid of phlegm.......


:P

That caught me completely by surprise, so I had to carefully clean my keyboard. Thanks alot!

[Badbird69]

J.C., I wouldn't lose any sleep over the idiotic ravings of a buffoon. One should only go to his pathetic website for occasional comedic relief. It is in Gach's DNA to berate anyone else's accomplishments or integrity to further his own misguided, self-serving agenda. (Little man syndrome). Like many of his followers, he is afflicted with poor reading comprehension, selective memory and most of all, WILLFUL IGNORANCE !!

Over the years he has picked up enough technical jargon and buzz words to make it sound like he maybe knows something. But the truth is, he couldn't decipher a flow sheet, a dyno sheet or even a timeslip if his life depended on it. Having never accomplished anything noteworthy on his own, he tries to ride the coat tails of those who have, and then talk a big game. Lets face it - five minutes spent with Gach is five minutes wasted.

But like they say: If you can't cut it in the real world, start a blog. LOL

On the bright side, the ECMF seems to have found a new home on PZ. Isn't that special?

[70pontiaction]

He and Gaaaaaccch both "hang out" at the same "male seeking male" dating sites......

That's what happens when you are phallically challenged.







(whew, luckily, I got that phlegm loose)

[john marcella]

The Pontiac community and the current markets hesitance or resistance to change is its biggest hurdle.

Its got to fit stock valve covers
Its got to fit stock headers
Its got to look like a Pontiac
It cant use only GOOD rocker gear


Well here you go, keep putting that warmed over stock lookalike chit on.

There is no market for good Pontiac parts, and its our fault , me and you are the market.
So we get chit that is designed to be a baby step so the market will accept it.


JMO

[Mikes455Wagon]

Originally Posted by Pitch 400

You guys comparing him to Bruce F?

Naa,

There is a chance Bruce may have actually built a motor once.

[marks73ta]

Has anyone ever seen them in the same place at the same time? Just sayin'????

Mark L

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by marks73ta

Has anyone ever seen them in the same place at the same time? Just sayin'????

Mark L

Maple Grove back in 2001-2002 if I remeber correctly.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Badbird69

J.C., I wouldn't lose any sleep over the idiotic ravings of a buffoon. One should only go to his pathetic website for occasional comedic relief. It is in Gach's DNA to berate anyone else's accomplishments or integrity to further his own misguided, self-serving agenda. (Little man syndrome). Like many of his followers, he is afflicted with poor reading comprehension, selective memory and most of all, WILLFUL IGNORANCE !!

Over the years he has picked up enough technical jargon and buzz words to make it sound like he maybe knows something. But the truth is, he couldn't decipher a flow sheet, a dyno sheet or even a timeslip if his life depended on it. Having never accomplished anything noteworthy on his own, he tries to ride the coat tails of those who have, and then talk a big game. Lets face it - five minutes spent with Gach is five minutes wasted.

But like they say: If you can't cut it in the real world, start a blog. LOL

On the bright side, the ECMF seems to have found a new home on PZ. Isn't that special?

How is your CV1 program coming along? Do you think you will have it back together for Norwalk next year?

[scooter1966]

Originally Posted by john marcella

The Pontiac community and the current markets hesitance or resistance to change is its biggest hurdle.

Its got to fit stock valve covers
Its got to fit stock headers
Its got to look like a Pontiac
It cant use only GOOD rocker gear


Well here you go, keep putting that warmed over stock lookalike chit on.

There is no market for good Pontiac parts, and its our fault , me and you are the market.
So we get chit that is designed to be a baby step so the market will accept it.


JMO

as it looked pontiac was headed towards the ohc tech, and i know that was and still is a pricey setup. But it would appear that we should be able to move into that same direction and this would still be a pontiac design to make everyone happy. Im sure there can be ways to adapt the factory blocks and other components to aid in the lower cost, but the port configurations and design could get even better. now i hate to talk about a Ford, but there mod motors are working pretty good so why not pick up where pontiac left off.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by scooter1966

as it looked pontiac was headed towards the ohc tech, and i know that was and still is a pricey setup. But it would appear that we should be able to move into that same direction and this would still be a pontiac design to make everyone happy. Im sure there can be ways to adapt the factory blocks and other components to aid in the lower cost, but the port configurations and design could get even better. now i hate to talk about a Ford, but there mod motors are working pretty good so why not pick up where pontiac left off.

Cost probibitive for 99% of Pontiac guys out there. And we still have not touched the potential in a great cylinder head with more head bolts and a moved bore blocks, which is also very costly.
So we will be stuck with stock intakes and RA4 cams for a while.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by john marcella

The Pontiac community and the current markets hesitance or resistance to change is its biggest hurdle.

Its got to fit stock valve covers
Its got to fit stock headers
Its got to look like a Pontiac
It cant use only GOOD rocker gear


Well here you go, keep putting that warmed over stock lookalike chit on.

There is no market for good Pontiac parts, and its our fault , me and you are the market.
So we get chit that is designed to be a baby step so the market will accept it.


JMO

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

If the Pontiac faithful really wanted to have a "Pontiac Design" they would build a new engine based on the SOHC Pontiac FI Engine. Overhead cams, super strong bottom end,
no camshaft/pushrod tubes to avoid, Tunnel Ram or Cross-ram style EFI.

But that would take imagination, not "warmed over stock lookalike chit".

Tom Vaught

[ho428]

Not everyone has cubic dollars.
Most of us want to be able to order something that will bolt on, fit and work. There will always be those that push the envelope regardless of brand, but the masses pays the bills.
I can't sink 20-30-40 grand in a one off engine, ain't gonna happen, ever. But if those dream builds get done sometimes the technology trickles down to us underlings.

[Jeff Kinsler]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

How is your CV1 program coming along? Do you think you will have it back together for Norwalk next year?

I would love to see Dick vs Jack at norwalk next year!!!!

[cgeise]

Your 100 Percent correct -build and market to the mass's and do the one off exotic stuff in an effort to advance research and development. We however are really getting into muddy water as a hobbiest group. What is a "Pontiac" based engine ?????? define that. Is a RAV really a Ram Air V when no pushrods are in the middle of the port?? Some will say its splitting hairs and some wil say its the heart of the Pontiac "world". Its fun and great to make power and win races with a Pontiac, or any brand for that matter, I guess what Im saying is don't lable something with a title or a name that it isnt.
Im not trying to start a pissing match with this comment - as some will say, but if you look at the latest engine out of BES it look's closer to a BBC or even a Ford than any Pontiac ever did. So if the next guy builds a 706 and used the latest aftermarket Sonny Leanord heads ect ect and puts PONTIAC on the valve cover, is it the new standard that all is measured by???? Just food for thought.

[Tom Vaught]

I agree with your comments totally, Curt.

Deal is, it was not that many years ago that RAM AIR IV camshafts and heads was the "Hot Chit" for a Pontiac guy. The Chebby and Ford guys were on version # 37 and 49 of their programs (Ford Guys like to constantly change chit, whether it works or not.)

The Pontiac Guys were stuck on 1971-73 level parts for the most part. Stock 455 SD head would flow about 235 cfm out of the box and a ported RA-IV maybe 300 cfm.

The Chebby boys have their street head from Dart with a 350+ cfm for cheap from Summit, Jegs, etc and a lot better ones from others ported.

So basically a few bought the aftermarket blocks, the better Edelbrock and KRE heads,
etc but compared to the Chebby/Ford market was a drop in the bucket.

Why is this? Because the aftermarket stuff basically looked identical (and functioned identical) to the traditional stuff. No new thinking going on. No new thinking, where is the market. You will not get any cross-over type guys from the Ford/Chebby camps.
If anything the LS engine stole members from the traditional camp, (STILL A GM ENGINE VS BUYING A HEAVEN FORBID FORD ENGINE .

So in my mind you have a whole bunch of loyal Pontiac people rooting for a very small number of guys putting down a number. Art Peterson, The McKennys, McCarthy Bros, Arnie, etc from the old days vs hundreds from the Chebby and Ford camps.

SOS is the key word. (Same Old Stuff). No one today brags about their HOT ROD 386 level computer with 1 meg of ram. They want the $$$$ Top End Gaming stuff that people are bringing out daily. That is where the money is. So you basically lost any new guy who wants to race unless the guy is a child of an old Pontiac family and races the brand because "Dad owned a GTO or F-Bird"

So either you can get on the bus with the other "gaming" type guys with new level "Pontiac parts" or you will die like the 386 computer did and PMD did.

May not be the NEW STANDARD Curt, but I will tell you that you will not be competitive as a large group staying where you are at today. Boost is new for most Pontiac Guys (Except for Arnie and Marty Palbykin). Ask Travis, Rodney, Cooper or Welter what their chances are to win a large race more than once with the traditional stuff vs a Ford or Chebby team.

You can talk about it but the bus has already left. Pontiac is Dead.

But my point is "That was YESTERDAY, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TODAY? JC'S AND DON'S DEALS ARE ONE OF THE FEW FORWARD THINKING DEALS OUT THERE.

Does either one actually look like that old RA-V stuff that costs $10K for a purist (bare NOS cores). NO BUT THE STUFF WILL ACTUALLY WORK AND MAKE POWER and be COMPETITIVE.

Tom Vaught

[GTOGEORGE]

I've been RACING Pontiacs for almost 40 years, started in 1974 when I bought my FIRST Pontiac a 1974 GTO………. love Pontiacs ever since. If you cut me I BLEED Pontiac! In my opinion if it bolts to a Pontiac block (Factory or Aftermarket) its A-OK with me. The Warp, CV-1 & RA5 all good in my book!



GTO George

[ho428]

I agree with some of that Tom but, getting outside the box like the V heads with convertible exhaust means nothing will bolt up, unlike the Dart BBC where all the support pieces are already in place.

The reason the Pontiac aftermarket stuff looks like OEM is so everything already available will bolt up.

It's a Pontiac by design, why would we want it to be something else?

[cgeise]

Im not claiming to have the definitive answer, And I am the first to embrace inovation. All I am saying is I think there needs to be line where it is either a Pontiac -- or its not. Kinda like the athlete that wants to compete as a women ----- but tests as a Man. George, your condition that if it bolts to a Pontiac block its a Pontiac, what if the lifter bores are moved - additional head bolts are added and it has a one off type crank to make it all come together, and you bolt some Sonny's semi hemi heads on that bad boy - Is it a Pontiac ?? And Tom, lets face it, there are way more index or bracket class racers than there are heads up -its just the reality of it all, so is the absolute ultimate combo needed to be able to compete in those classes needed--No. Its the same in the Chev camp -- is a 5.3 in bore space 11.2 in tall deck really a chevrolet when it sports symetrical aftermarket heads ??
They are porpous built race engines -- far and away from Chev's. And if you bolted a set of stock RA V heads on that block -- is it a Pontiac ?? Its very convoluted to say the least.