[John V.]

Doubt that this data is of much interest, but figured I'd add one that Ron Cozzo just saw, 06B. Fills in another hole.

As a reminder, I started the list to see if there was any evidence to support the story Wanger's told that Sunfire Red had been cancelled for about 30 days and brought back by dealer demand. I doubted the story and believed that enough Sunfire Red cars can be turned up to prove it wasn't so. List is short and inconclusive so you can form your own opinion.

10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
06B (Pontiac)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[tarheeltempest]

Here's a 64 post coupe - Sunfire Red. 4 bbl, 4 speed, tach, 3:23 open, black interior & console.

[John V.]

Thanks, another hole filled!

10B (plant unknown)
10E (Pontiac)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
06B (Pontiac)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[tarheeltempest]

You're welcome.

[barrierblue66]

I saw this on a '64 GTO in Dayton, awesome color, def not pink. hard to describe, but as someone else said, it changes color, depending on the lighting, as my Barrier Blue does.

[johnta1]

Interesting cowl tag.
It also has the number '1' in the ACC codes - 1W

Don't see that very often?

[John V.]

John, in '64, the Pontiac Plant always coded the "1" for the Group 1 Accessory codes.

The Kansas City Plant did not.

The Pontiac Plant also coded each one separately, example, I have a pic showing:

1E-1X-1T-2Y-2P-2T-2V-3B
5N-5W

(used 2 lines on the Plate, didn't all fit on 1 line!).

At Kansas City, they lumped the codes together so they fit more compactly on the Plate, such as this example (also have the pic):

E 2KLPR 3B 5NW

[johnta1]

Thank, John.

I must usually see Kansas City ones.
Most I've seen look like your last example.

[John V.]

I forgot that Jake64 reported a couple weeks ago in another thread about a 10C Fremont build. Adding it here. For those paying attention, the most obvious hole is for the month of March.

Until March builds are found and other holes filled, the cancellation story is not busted.

10B (plant unknown)
10C (Fremont)
10E (Pontiac)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
06B (Pontiac)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[John V.]

Dug thru old stuff. Found info on an 06C Sunfire Red GTO Hardtop from Kansas City. Also, forgot that Chad had sent me a pic of the Data Plate for the 02B car. Tempest Wagon also built at Kansas City, so I've added the Assembly Plant ID for that one.

10B (plant unknown)
10C (Fremont)
10E (Pontiac)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
02B (Kansas City)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
06B (Pontiac)
06C (Kansas City)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[Old Goat Racer]

Originally Posted by John V.

Thanks. I'm keeping my eyes open for more input. Anybody know Kenny Gregrich in Utah? Or John Novelli of the Gateway GTOs? They both own(ed) Sunfire Red GTOs.

Latest list with yours included:

10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

John Novelli yes

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer

John Novelli yes

Can you contact him to get his Assembly Plant and Time Built code? Much appreciated!

[Old Goat Racer]

John Seabolt who passed away several years ago had a Sunfire Red 64 GTO.
His son still has the car. It was featured in the Feb. 94 issue of HPP.
He lives in the St. Louis/St.Charles area.

I haven't seen Novelli in years. but I have 2 phone numbers from an old business card.
636-925-9916 & 314-495-0332
Be careful

[John V.]

I could be wrong, but it might have been John Seabolt's car that I logged the 10B from. It was many years ago, the car was very nos. matching and I was just starting to log info for my '64 engine log. I spoke to the Owner at a GTOAA meet, I think it was in St. Louis in the early '90s.

"Be careful" about contacting John Novelli? I'm not desperate to collect data. What's the deal?

Engine-Ear here has just purchased a Sunfire Red '64 Tempest, will provide the Time Built when he receives the car.

I contacted a guy in Cal that has a Sunfire Red '64 GTO from Kansas City. He says he will check for the code and get back to me.

[bill ryder]

GTOAA was in St.Louis in1994 right off I 70 before you get to Lambert Airport.
I spoke with John N. at Dayton several time. I don't have his number for some reason. May try to call if no one else has, using the posted numbers. "Bill"!

[John V.]

Bill, that would be great if you can collect the data from John Novelli.

Guy in Calif reports 02A. First duplicated week but different Plant so I've added it.

10B (plant unknown)
10C (Fremont)
10E (Pontiac)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
02A Kansas City)
02B (Kansas City)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
06B (Pontiac)
06C (Kansas City)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[bill ryder]

Just talked with John N. his car was built 11/09/63. Because of his interest in Sunfire Red, he will keep his eyes open and let us know of any he locates. I also told him of the gap showing up. He was also aware of the rumor. That's all for now. "bill"!

[Pontirag]

where did that gap show up? what documentation? what sources?

[johnta1]

The beginning of this thread?

Wangers said they dropped the color, then brought it back but didn't say when.
John V ( and others) made a list of body dates, and March seems to be a no-show.

[John V.]

There are multiple gaps. But I've only scratched the surface for the no. of '64s built. If anything, it amazes me that I've been able to find Sunfire Red builds over such a wide range of dates from so few records. Not that I didn't expect that they existed, just that I didn't expect to fill in the gaps with such a small sample of builds.

Bill, if you talk to John Novelli again, could you ask him to provide the Time Built code and the Plant where built? I'd like to log the data in a consistent form if possible.

I'm still waiting to hear from Engine-Ear. I have seen a number of '64 Pontiacs in Sunfire Red advertised for sale but haven't tried to track any down.

From the extremely limited data we have so far, it looks to me that Sunfire Red was used from beginning of production. Don't have any Sept. builds but assume that it was offered from the start, the Sept.-Oct. '63 SCN No. 6 mentions "15 exterior paint finishes" and Sunfire Red was always on the list of 15 exterior colors in sales lit.

Pretty clear from the data, Sunfire Red used thru early Dec. '63 for sure. Then there is a nominal 30 day gap in the data to a 1/7/64 build. Then another nominal 30 day gap to a couple 02A builds.

Logged a couple later Feb builds, then the big gap from 2/20/64 to the 2nd week April.

Next is about a 4 week gap from 04C to 05B.

And yet another nominal 30 day gap between 05B and 06B.

After that, we have 3 records that pretty much take us to the end of '64 production without a significant gap ('64 production came to an end nominally the last day of July).

There were approximately 48 build weeks during '64 production and cars built in 11 months. With just 18 Sunfire Red records, we've found a build in every month except Sept '63 and March '64 (I've never recorded a '64 build for Aug '63 or Aug '64 so no reason to expect to find a Sunfire Red build for either of those months). And builds in 17 of the 48 weeks.

And there are only 5 possible calendar gaps left that could support the claim that Sunfire Red had been discontinued for "about 30 days" during the Model Year as Jim Wangers has been quoted.

Pontirag, no PMD documentation has surfaced to show that Sunfire Red was being canceled, nor that it was being brought back.

So the only way I know to try to prove the story true or false is to find evidence of Sunfire Red builds throughout the Model Year.

Unless the calendar gaps are filled, the story remains a possibility.

But I think we've narrowed the possibility way down already.