#41  
Old 05-18-2015, 07:25 PM
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Ron Landis Ron Landis is offline
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Question Barn find...

looking at a Nocturne / black Tri-Power four speed 3.90 HD rear, metallic brakes. tach and not much else. PHS shows HD fan. Radiator and air cleaner. Ride and handling and HD Posi. Doesn't all that HD cooling come on a GTO optioned car anyway? This one has been sitting in a barn sans drivetrain for @ forty years...straight with NO rust! What is the correct engine code? I was thinking 76x? Mine has a big car engine but it's just a LeMans anyway. Anyone have a correct block and/or heads to sell? Intake is still with the car. Not overly concerned about date codes. Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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  #42  
Old 05-19-2015, 08:16 AM
Vet65te Vet65te is offline
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Ron - Sounds like a good car to build, keep us posted.

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  #43  
Old 05-19-2015, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Landis View Post
looking at a Nocturne / black Tri-Power four speed 3.90 HD rear, metallic brakes. tach and not much else. PHS shows HD fan. Radiator and air cleaner. Ride and handling and HD Posi. Doesn't all that HD cooling come on a GTO optioned car anyway? This one has been sitting in a barn sans drivetrain for @ forty years...straight with NO rust! What is the correct engine code? I was thinking 76x? Mine has a big car engine but it's just a LeMans anyway. Anyone have a correct block and/or heads to sell? Intake is still with the car. Not overly concerned about date codes. Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.


You will want the W in the code for the correct 4speed block. I am building two 64 tripower 4speed engines. One will be a stocker type and the other a ringer. One of my blocks has the W stamped before the 76x, or W76X and the other stamped as 76XW. Anyone seen this before? Will get a couple of pics and post.

I may part with one of these longblocks. Preferably the stocker build.

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1963 Cat SD Clone (old school) streeter
1964 GTO post coupe, tripower, 4speed (build)
1965 GTO 389 tripower, 4 speed, driver
1966 GTO dragcar
1966 GTO Ragtop
1969 Tempest ET clone street/strip
1969 GTO Judge RA lll, auto
1969 GTO limelight Conv. 4speed go and show (sold)
1970 GP SSJ
1970 GTO barn find..TLB…390 horse?….yeh, 390
1972 GTO 455 HO, 4 speed, (build)
1973 Grand Safari wagon, 700hp stoplight sleeper
525ci DCI & 609ci LM V head builds

Last edited by J.C.you; 05-19-2015 at 08:54 AM.
  #44  
Old 05-19-2015, 12:40 PM
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Default Well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.C.you View Post
You will want the W in the code for the correct 4speed block. I am building two 64 tripower 4speed engines. One will be a stocker type and the other a ringer. One of my blocks has the W stamped before the 76x, or W76X and the other stamped as 76XW. Anyone seen this before? Will get a couple of pics and post.

I may part with one of these longblocks. Preferably the stocker build.
Research shows X block is 3-speed...XW or W added in front of the number sounds like what was explained to me as the factory using 3-speed leftover blocks in four speed cars. Now...the plot thickens. PHS on this car lists it as an M-20 car...but lists the engine code as 76x. Four barrel cars were 78x according to PHS, that is. That said...either would work for me...and also prefer the stock build. How much? And some details if you could. Much obliged!

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  #45  
Old 05-19-2015, 02:30 PM
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I bought my '64 GTO new with tri-power and a 4-speed. The block code was 76X. The W was stamped later and didn't look like a part of the code number, but it was.

  #46  
Old 05-21-2015, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor View Post
I bought my '64 GTO new with tri-power and a 4-speed. The block code was 76X. The W was stamped later and didn't look like a part of the code number, but it was.
For future reference that may help others....
That is the way the W76X block is in the first pic.
The second pic is the 76XW.
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1963 Cat SD Clone (old school) streeter
1964 GTO post coupe, tripower, 4speed (build)
1965 GTO 389 tripower, 4 speed, driver
1966 GTO dragcar
1966 GTO Ragtop
1969 Tempest ET clone street/strip
1969 GTO Judge RA lll, auto
1969 GTO limelight Conv. 4speed go and show (sold)
1970 GP SSJ
1970 GTO barn find..TLB…390 horse?….yeh, 390
1972 GTO 455 HO, 4 speed, (build)
1973 Grand Safari wagon, 700hp stoplight sleeper
525ci DCI & 609ci LM V head builds
  #47  
Old 05-25-2015, 10:06 PM
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Wink Well...

headed out@ 3am to pick up the car...so the saga begins!

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  #48  
Old 06-02-2015, 03:23 PM
Vet65te Vet65te is offline
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Ron - Any updates or pics of the new GTO?

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  #49  
Old 10-24-2015, 03:12 PM
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SONIC 4 U SONIC 4 U is offline
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Default Nocturne Blue

Should have you some updates soon on the nocturne blue 64. I am going to post the restoration in the 64 forum. We should have back I our possession end of next week. It is currently painted and back on frame. Thanks

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  #50  
Old 11-22-2015, 02:49 PM
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Exclamation Yeah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC 4 U View Post
Should have you some updates soon on the nocturne blue 64. I am going to post the restoration in the 64 forum. We should have back I our possession end of next week. It is currently painted and back on frame. Thanks
this is definitely a "the teacher becomes the student" situation. My son decided to "outshine" me several years back when we were doing
predominantly '69 GTO's...but he's taking this '64 thing to a whole other level. Paint is outstanding...detail will not embarrass it in any way,shape or form. I gotta say the folks we met at the Nat's this year are veritable fountains of information! (Bill Ryder and Brody in particular...but there are others) I love this place and these folks!!! None of this would be possible without your willingness to share information and generosity in sharing your parts stashes....and I've already forgiven y'all for making me feel ignorant...which I was when it came to these cars...but I'm learning every day thanks to you guys. Anyway...I digress. Stay tuned...as this is guaranteed to only get better. Hang around here and you'll learn to do one of these cars right!

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  #51  
Old 09-22-2016, 03:52 PM
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Just realized I never came back and posted "fully done" photos.
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  #52  
Old 08-10-2017, 09:08 AM
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What's the story on this? PHS shows tripower but the other paperwork posted shows 4bbl.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/302405769046?ul_noapp=true

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  #53  
Old 01-29-2018, 12:53 PM
Firegoat Firegoat is offline
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Default 64 tripower 4 speed

Just got this car a few weeks ago. Listed in the Reno/Sparks Craigslist. Second owner since 1966! Has all original 76xw motor/trans and one repaint. Looking to change the wheels and replace weatherstripping for now.
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  #54  
Old 01-29-2018, 07:05 PM
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WOW! Congrats. That's a great car!

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  #55  
Old 04-08-2022, 01:13 AM
64srule 64srule is offline
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I have a 64 tripower 4 speed GTO, triple black convertible.. PHS documented.
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  #56  
Old 05-26-2022, 12:48 PM
G.T.O.boy G.T.O.boy is offline
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Default 64 Sunfire Red Tripower

Here's mine 64 tripower 4spd Sunfire Red, last of the early build cars at Fremont, I'm the third owner, second had it since 76
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  #57  
Old 05-26-2022, 02:38 PM
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Wow.. factory red, trips, limited slip rear and a four speed...that's nice. Looks solid.

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  #58  
Old 05-26-2022, 04:42 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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G.T.O.boy, nice list of options.

I'm passionate about the '64 generally, but as a Fremont built '64 GTO owner, I'm always especially fascinated by those builds.

You stated that yours is the "last of the early build cars at Fremont" but I can't figure out exactly what you might mean by that. Please elaborate.

Can you also post your Time Built code from the Data Plate? Long ago I was tracking Sunfire Red '64s in an attempt to dispel a myth about that color choice. I'd like to add yours to that old post.

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Old 05-26-2022, 05:45 PM
G.T.O.boy G.T.O.boy is offline
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There was a change over in January, this car was built the very last week of January. Starting in February (it was thought within the first couple of weeks at the latest) the standard equipment on a tripower car changed. Early cars got the heavy duty cooling standard (four core radiator and fan), and 3.55 gears standard listed as F1 (F=3.55 1=posi) K would be 3.23, after January orders the heavy duty cooling was extra cost as was a 3.55 gear, they had the early style valve covers without the rubber plug, the engines weren't stamped with a W for the four speed (Fremont cars can be verified with PHS as the block number and the block stamp code is listed on the PHS even without the protecto plate) Mine was stamped from the factory as 76x (no w on early cars) and the block id number is listed on paper work as 137690. Early cars had the two pulley alternator with two belts, later ones did not. Most of the early cars got the different tail lights with the reflector on the side, the later ones had the reflector in the center, mine got the reflectors on the center (not sure when this changed, less part numbers to deal with). Early cars had the Muncie with ending with 325 and still said patent pending, later ones had the 325 case with the patent number listed. (this change was as stock changed as was the tail lights). My buddy had a early 63 built 64 GTO that had the old Muncie case ending in 706.

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Old 05-27-2022, 11:54 AM
John V. John V. is offline
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G.T.O.boy, I can see where you might draw such a conclusion. I would suggest to you that these were Model Year running changes that took place every year. Not really what would be referred to as a "change over" which took place at the conclusion of the Model Year in preparation for the following Model Year.

The Tripower did undergo some changes. The rear axle ratio change was announced by Service Craftsman News (I think by Flash Bulletin also) and was effective for builds starting about January 27 according to the SCN.

You are correct, was 3.55 and PMD changed it to 3.23 (they stated for performance and fuel economy reasons), same as the 4 bbl builds. The axle code F1 on your Shipping Manifest did catch my eye as there is no indication it was a Special Axle Ratio Request. Your car was scheduled on Jan 28 and was scheduled to go to Final Assembly on Friday Jan 31, 1964. In the end, it may have started down the line on that Friday but the Shipping Manifest shows the Date Produced as Monday Feb 3, 1964 (I'm guessing they might not have been running the line on Saturday at that time). Based on the SCN, one might have thought that it should have gotten the 3.23 but note the SCN said "about" so the timing was such that it seems to have gotten the 3.55. Fremont may have been a tad slowing initiating the change.

You are correct, later Tripower builds had to specify by special order request the 3.55 at extra cost subsequently (it also required Memo approval at that point) so yours might have been one of the last to get the 3.55 as the standard release.

Does your car have the HD 2-5/8" thick Radiator? This was also standard release for the Tripower since it was mandatory with the 3.55 axle.

However, it is unclear if the Tripower was supposed to get the 2" thick tall Radiator (same as the standard release in the 4 bbl GTO) after the rear axle change was announced. Kansas CIty and Baltimore Tripower builds continued to get the 2-5/8" thick Rad as standard into March, long after they began to get the 3.23 axle as standard. I have always assumed this was an oversight but not sure if PMD engineering was at fault or those Final Plants were at fault. The Rad and Axle Ratio codes are provided on the KC and Balt Shipping Records so the usage and time frames are well documented.

Fremont and Pontiac records do not show the HD Radiator unless it was optioned for the particular build. I have not fully researched when these Plants began installing the 2" thick Radiator in Tripower builds so I do not know if it coincided with the change to the 3.23 axle or came later as it did at KC and Balt.

Starting January 1, 1964, Calf required the Closed Circuit Crankcase Vent System. The Pontiac Engine Assembly Plant started to install the LH Valve Covers with the Plug well before January. The Assembly Guide instructed the Final Plants to remove the Plug and install the CCCV plumbing for any build sold to a Calif dealer starting Jan 1. The removed Plugs were to be returned to Inventory.

The Tempest Inspector's Guide detailed the CCCV in the revision that included all engineering supersedures as of Dec 19, 1963. PMD would have wanted to anticipate this change well in advance in order to avoid having engine assemblies inventoried at the Final Plants that lacked the necessary provision for the CCCV. This would have been especially true of the Calif Final Plants. The alternative would have been to use up existing inventory of older engine assemblies for non Calif builds like yours. That might even explain your relatively early EUN. Your engine was assembled prior to Dec 19, 1963

It is interesting what you say about the Final Plant secondary trans stamp code. The earliest Fremont GTO records that show the W are from May. I have noticed the missing W on the PHS record but have not documented enough original Fremont engines to know whether the block was properly stamped with the secondary trans code as outlined in the Inspector's Guide. My own was built in Nov '63 but the block was long gone when I bought it. The Fremont Shipping Manifest record does not show the W for mine, it is a 4 spd GTO, I always believed it was intended to be stamped, regardless of early or late.

If you have additional data for original blocks showing it to be an early vs late thing, I would love to learn more. I am always interested to learn new stuff about the '64.

I mentioned previously that I maintain an extensive '64 Engine Log dating back more than 30 years. I record Model, Plant, Time Built code, EUN, and Block Cast date. I would love the opportunity to add yours.

Your EUN was assembled in Nov '63, block cast date likely mid Nov like K153.

About a month later the Engine Plant was assembling EUN 190810. That EUN assembled on Dec 19, 1963 marked a change for the GTO engines. Prior to that they got standard (thinner wire) Valve Springs. Thereafter, they got the thicker wire HD Valve Springs. Another example of a running change.

The story on the V belt revision only affected PS cars (without AC) so would NOT have affected your build.

The change affected all Pontiacs, big Pontiacs and A bodies. The SCN and Flash Bulletin announcing this change indicated the change was to occur on or about Feb 1. KC and Balt builds list the V belt codes so it is easy to see when the change took place at those 2 Plants.

Earlier PS builds (without AC) used a twin V belt arrangement and required a specific Alternator (42A for big Pontiacs, 37A for the A body). These Alts had a 2 groove pulley. The OE Alts installed at Final Assembly were supplied by Delco complete with the Pulley which affected the Alt p/n (service Alts were sold without Pulleys so carried different p/ns than the OE Alts used in production.

Non-PS builds used a different specific Alt with a single groove pulley (42A for the big Pontiac, 37A for the A body).

After the revision, the PS builds (without AC) used the same Alts with the single groove pulley as the non-PS builds, eliminating the need to inventory the specific Alts with the 2 groove pulleys.

As an aside, the V8 A body with the TI option used the 42A from the big car. With PS, early A body TI builds got the 2 groove 42A Alt, after the change, the single groove 42A pulley.

The Alt p/ns that included the 2 groove pulley are hard to find since they were only used part year while the Alt p/ns with the single groove pulleys are easier since they were used all year.

My Nov build got the 1st design taillight lenses. I don't recall if the timing of that change is documented other than in the Master Parts Catalog as "1st Design" and "2nd Design".

I have the Muncie Case marked Pat. Pending.

Another running change that did affect your GTO was the inclusion of Front Seat Belts. Prior to January, Seat Belts were strictly optional. Choice of the Standard Belts or the Custom Belts which included the cheapo winders.

Succumbing to insurance industry pressure and enactment of a couple state laws that were scheduled to take affect at the beginning of the '65 Model Year, GM announced that all passenger cars would get two sets of seat belts as standard after Dec '63. Base prices of all A body Tempests were raised $11 and the A20 standard seat belts were removed from the Order Form. Instead, you could specify the Seat Belt Delete option for an $11 credit. Also, the Custom Belts option was reduced in price by $10.76 to reflect the added standard content, effectively the Custom Belt option now only added the winders although the Custom Belts themselves were fancier than the standard belts. You will note the A20 option is asterisked on the Shipping Manifest to indicate that this option is standard content for this vehicle, not to be separately priced on the Window Sticker.

Running changes happened all the time. Around April, PMD released the Close Ratio Muncie M21, Code 8 trans as a special equipment option for the GTO only. It required Tripower and 3.90 although you could still get the Wide Ratio Muncie M20, Code 9 trans with 3.90 and the Tripower or 4 bbl as was available all year. Don't be fooled by older references that claimed the Code 9 was Close Ratio. That is incorrect. The Code 9 was identical to the Code W with the exception that it had a 6 tooth internal speedo drive gear on the mainshaft for speedo accuracy with the 3.90 axle. The Code W had an 8 tooth speedo drive gear. You didn't order the Code 9 Trans, it was the standard release if you specified the 3.90 axle and the regular production 4 speed. The Code 9 trans assembly p/n was 9774826. The Code W p/n was 9774825. The Code 8 was released under p/n 9777000. These p/ns were found on a metal tag attached to the side cover during trans assembly by Muncie. Mine still has the original p/n tag, most p/n tags went missing early on.

Sounds like you have an interest in these kinds of '64 details so I thought I would share. I definitely have a passion for these details and still after about 50 years of studying the '64, I still learn new things about them.

Would love to add your info to my engine log, just need the Block Cast date and the Time Built Code. I also saw that you posted some years ago in the Sunfire Red thread but I never got your Time Built code. Would like to have it for that topic too.

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