#21  
Old 01-26-2020, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
He ended up with a 571. Kept the bore to 4.350" and installed a 4.750 crank. So it's more of a ridiculous torque monster than a HP maker. Very fun to drive.
There’s a lot of awesome and fast street cars here.... I crown him the King, for now... LOL

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Old 01-26-2020, 02:53 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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The IA2 has been through several foundries and machine shops I understand. And they have things worked out closer to race spec since around 2016 from what I hear. Does anyone have any experience with these later blocks and how close they are vs the early ones which needed quite a bit of work ?

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Old 01-26-2020, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
The IA2 has been through several foundries and machine shops I understand. And they have things worked out closer to race spec since around 2016 from what I hear. Does anyone have any experience with these later blocks and how close they are vs the early ones which needed quite a bit of work ?
I can tell you who is, (or at least was during that time frame up to recently), doing the machine work for Frank on those IA blocks. Mike Zimmerman down here in Phoenix runs Zimmerman Racing and has done work for me in the past. Last time I was down there he had a slew of IA blocks and Tiger heads that he was working on for Frank. He told me at that time he was doing the machine work for him and dynoing some of this stuff for street cars around the area. Frank lives out here in Scottsdale.
He was trying to talk me into a set of those Tiger heads at the time for dad's engine. Does nice work and a very nice guy. Has built some killer Pontiac engines.

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Old 01-26-2020, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN View Post
There’s a lot of awesome and fast street cars here.... I crown him the King, for now... LOL
LOL I'll tell him you said that

There are a ton of very fast cars out here in this area, but they don't drive them on the street nearly as much as dad drives his, and come Pontiac and Muscle car race time at the local track, they never seem to show up.

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Old 01-26-2020, 11:28 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Anyone remember in 2006 the Butler Performance 601 cu in engine featured in Hot Rod magazine. The monster engine created more than 700 hp and 750 ft. lb. torque on pump gas.


.

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Old 01-26-2020, 11:44 AM
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Anyone remember in 2006 the Butler Performance 601 cu in engine featured in Hot Rod magazine. The monster engine created more than 700 hp and 750 ft. lb. torque on pump gas.


.
Isn't that the one that had a really docile camshaft in it? Or am I thinking of another one?

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Old 01-26-2020, 12:17 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
The IA2 has been through several foundries and machine shops I understand. And they have things worked out closer to race spec since around 2016 from what I hear. Does anyone have any experience with these later blocks and how close they are vs the early ones which needed quite a bit of work ?
I have built Indian Adventures first gen blocks, IA II iron and IA II solid aluminum blocks in that order, 8 blocks total. Yes, each generation of casting gets better and better and the machining also has better finish and is more accurate. This is all very true. However, they are all castings, either iron or aluminum and the level of accuracy before assembly and running it is the decision of the end user, the intended use and horsepower/durability they expect. Since these blocks are a huge upgrade from a stock block and the initial cost is significant, I would think the end user would want a block as close to perfect as possible. An example might be deck height. I have seen Pontiac factory blocks .015" out of square and .017" variation in deck height. These blocks all messed up like this have run possibly hundreds of thousands of miles like this. 8 different compression ratio's. In a 300 HP street engine, it would go unnoticed. The last 2 IA II aluminum blocks I prepared had the deck height +-.001". Almost perfect as delivered. Very impressive. Line hone was +- .0003". also well within factory specs. My equipment can line hone +-.0001, so I went ahead and closed the tolerance a little. It's all up to "how perfect" you want them to be. IMO, The IA blocks can be honed, cleaned and run as delivered for the most part. For peace of mind, I still want to check and measure everything to verify.

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Old 01-26-2020, 12:43 PM
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Spotts was selling IA2 505 short blocks, assembled, for $6500. You can email and see if that's still a valid price, if it's not, it's very close to that.

spotfam@verizon.net

Toss on a set of E-heads, a cam, and button it up with oil pan, valley, TC, etc, and you can make some good numbers with a virtually indestructible short block. Can even build it in stages.

You can step up to a 4.5 crank (535ci) for just a hair more.

You start comparing those numbers to what others are paying for engines and you will see the cost is not much more.

EDIT: I just picked up my 535 from Spotts yesterday for the 'bird, will do a thread on that. Went mild on the cam since I only have 315cfm heads and 3.25 rear gears, but it will still be plenty potent.

.

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  #29  
Old 01-26-2020, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
I have built Indian Adventures first gen blocks, IA II iron and IA II solid aluminum blocks in that order, 8 blocks total. Yes, each generation of casting gets better and better and the machining also has better finish and is more accurate. This is all very true. However, they are all castings, either iron or aluminum and the level of accuracy before assembly and running it is the decision of the end user, the intended use and horsepower/durability they expect. Since these blocks are a huge upgrade from a stock block and the initial cost is significant, I would think the end user would want a block as close to perfect as possible. An example might be deck height. I have seen Pontiac factory blocks .015" out of square and .017" variation in deck height. These blocks all messed up like this have run possibly hundreds of thousands of miles like this. 8 different compression ratio's. In a 300 HP street engine, it would go unnoticed. The last 2 IA II aluminum blocks I prepared had the deck height +-.001". Almost perfect as delivered. Very impressive. Line hone was +- .0003". also well within factory specs. My equipment can line hone +-.0001, so I went ahead and closed the tolerance a little. It's all up to "how perfect" you want them to be. IMO, The IA blocks can be honed, cleaned and run as delivered for the most part. For peace of mind, I still want to check and measure everything to verify.
Thanks for that. It was just confirming what Frank told me how the new blocks were turning out. Mine is a 2016 block so I expect what you said as far as how close they are. Lewis Racing has one of those big do it all block CNC machines that indicates where its at from some locating lugs on blocks. The latest IA2 is in its computer files so mine will get checked out on that machine.
I know what you are saying about stock blocks. My 455 putting out 550+ HP for many years was never decked or line honed and it is still doing fine. The factory marks on the deck are still there. Its a 4 bolt block and I just installed main studs without a line hone. Its been "good enough" to get its intended job done and be very durable. Way back when I originally had the block done and asked Dan about line honing the block he told me Pontiacs were generally pretty good and he had seen quite a few good blocks messed up line honing over the years. So I left it as is.
The 461 I am doing right now was line bored and honed by Dan fitting the splayed billet caps. After he passed and I got the block and had it checked out by the best local shop here and was told it was dead on the nuts. He was impressed So I just had it tq plate bored and zero decked. This engine will get a bit more attention than my old 455. Really looking forward to how it turns out. Dan's last engine.

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Old 01-26-2020, 06:32 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Larry, that 600-inch Butler engine had a Comp solid roller with 280/288 at .050, 0.678" lift intake & exhaust and I think it was ground with a 112 LSA.
4.375 stroke
5.00 bore
9.72 compression
Edelbrock Wide Port heads
Victor intake w/ 1190-cfm King Dominator

WD Creech built a 606-inch combo.

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #31  
Old 01-26-2020, 08:15 PM
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I remember that build Steve C, I used to think wow! A 'mountain motor' Pontiac! Heheh!

I went with a 'tame' solid roller that I had mentioned to you before, the Hi-Tech lobes, thanks for that info! Ended up with a solid roller 260/267, 112LSA, .421 lobe lift, have 1.65s. Sure I will be happy with it!

Port matched Northwind, Sniper XFlow, hyper-spark, should be fun with a TKO.


.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
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  #32  
Old 01-26-2020, 08:34 PM
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Just to throw it out there, I have one of the early run IA2 iron std deck/bore blocks, and to go to 4.350 bore, it was recommended I sleeve two bores, which I did. I will see if I can get more specific info regarding, but that block was one of the 'prepped' blocks ready to assenble from Butler. It would have been fine at the bore it was delivered as, but it was one of those 'better not take the chance' things for me. (going to a larger bore)



.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #33  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Larry, that 600-inch Butler engine had a Comp solid roller with 280/288 at .050, 0.678" lift intake & exhaust and I think it was ground with a 112 LSA.
4.375 stroke
5.00 bore
9.72 compression
Edelbrock Wide Port heads
Victor intake w/ 1190-cfm King Dominator

WD Creech built a 606-inch combo.

.
Hmm, I would have expected more from a combo like that. Wide ports, a dominator, and a much larger camshaft than dad uses, not to mention it's a bigger engine.
Dad is using standard Edelbrock round port heads, the old style with bathtub chambers, his solid roller was smaller on duration at 269/279 @ .050 but with .436/.441 lobes, and an old 950cfm 4150 HP carb that I set up years ago. He made 724hp and 764tq and we never actually found the high peak tq numbers, Tony wasn't starting the pulls until 4500 where peak torque was already falling.

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Old 01-27-2020, 12:09 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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There are some issues with the Hot Rod magazine reporting of that 600-inch Butler street engine using the IA2 tall deck block, one short article in 2006 stated the Victor/1190 cfm carb set up and another reported fuel injection.
The latter stated 738 hp at 5800 rpm.

"We considered a 6,000 rpm power curve to be sufficient running room, enough to let the torque build to very high power outputs, while producing a combination that will be easy on the internal assembly and valvetrain. Abnormally large displacement is the key here, providing staggering output without requiring destructive rpm levels."

And on the subject of monster Pontiac engines. Regarding WDCreech's 606-inch engine (actually a 605.5), one statement stated it replaced a 619 cu. in. engine.

Back in those days Pontiac Dude stated 535 cu.in. seems to be the best bang for the buck with current aftermarket blocks and cranks.



.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #35  
Old 01-27-2020, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
There are some issues with the Hot Rod magazine reporting of that 600-inch Butler street engine using the IA2 tall deck block, one short article in 2006 stated the Victor/1190 cfm carb set up and another reported fuel injection.
The latter stated 738 hp at 5800 rpm.

"We considered a 6,000 rpm power curve to be sufficient running room, enough to let the torque build to very high power outputs, while producing a combination that will be easy on the internal assembly and valvetrain. Abnormally large displacement is the key here, providing staggering output without requiring destructive rpm levels."

And on the subject of monster Pontiac engines. Regarding WDCreech's 606-inch engine (actually a 605.5), one statement stated it replaced a 619 cu. in. engine.

Back in those days Pontiac Dude stated 535 cu.in. seems to be the best bang for the buck with current aftermarket blocks and cranks.



.
That seems to make more sense. That's the beauty of these large ci engines. You don't have to spin them tight to make silly power. Dad's HP peaked at 5700 rpm, and the torque never dropped below 700 ft lbs. through the curve.

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Old 01-27-2020, 12:31 PM
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From WDcreech in 2009, not a street engine but of interest.....


606 cu in tall deck IA block, 4.39" JE pistons, 7.070" MGP rods hooked to a 5" Moldex billit crank, sheet metal tunnel w/2 1295 cfm Carb Smith dominators, a 286/308 at .050 duration w/.914"-.856" lift Erson roller cam.

Incrementals:
60'------1.1981
330'-----3.4170
660'-----5.2920 mph-----132.01
1320'----8.2550 mph-----164.17
On this pass I had lifted before the stripe on a double breakout pass, but it was my quickest ever.

On his 619-inch engine it had a 4.440" bore, but it was thin enough that it was filled, and he did end up having to sleeve it.


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #37  
Old 01-27-2020, 12:45 PM
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How cool is that. 5" crank LOL

  #38  
Old 01-30-2020, 11:07 PM
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77 TRASHCAN 77 TRASHCAN is offline
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I noticed on the install instructions that you can “borrow” a torque wrench plate, customer has to pay freight both ways...AP also sells that plate for $450.00

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  #39  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Spotts was selling IA2 505 short blocks, assembled, for $6500. You can email and see if that's still a valid price, if it's not, it's very close to that.

spotfam@verizon.net

Toss on a set of E-heads, a cam, and button it up with oil pan, valley, TC, etc, and you can make some good numbers with a virtually indestructible short block.
That is what I did and that price is in the ballpark for the MR-1 shortblock with dished pistons I got from Kauffman cost. Add your cam, heads, induction and have fun. If you get bored with that just add more of each and some extra rpms, or maybe a power adder of some sort, without having to touch the block.

One thing that discouraged me on the IA block is that I was told the pan rail is lower than a stock block. Is this true? If so it could cause potential interference with the crossmember in a stock bodied application.

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  #40  
Old 01-31-2020, 02:16 PM
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"One thing that discouraged me on the IA block is that I was told the pan rail is lower than a stock block. Is this true? If so it could cause potential interference with the crossmember in a stock bodied application. "

No problem in my 79 Camaro stock frame.

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