[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

Sounds like an awesome ride. I'd love to see a video of that 302!

I had my 505 rebuilt here in Spokane by a local guy with a good reputation, it was only $850 labor. So far so good, I've got about 1500 miles on it and no issues to date. We reused the rods, pistons, and cometic head gaskets but switched to a hydraulic roller, and I think it was about $2500 total.

That's a pretty darn good build for the money. And the neat thing about Pontiacs when you get into the bigger CI like that is they have no short supply of torque which makes them extremely fun to drive.

Switching to a hydraulic roller gets spendy, and that's something that I generally do on builds here, but because of the nature of the DZ I wanted to keep that as it was intended with the solid flat tappet so it makes all the right noises..

My own Pontiac I stuck with the stock hydraulic flat tappet for the simple reason of conforming to a rules package and trying to make the car go as quick as I could with stock parts. Otherwise that thing would definitely be a stroker with a roller cam, and it may very well end up that way in the future.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's a pretty darn good build for the money. And the neat thing about Pontiacs when you get into the bigger CI like that is they have no short supply of torque which makes them extremely fun to drive.

Switching to a hydraulic roller gets spendy, and that's something that I generally do on builds here, but because of the nature of the DZ I wanted to keep that as it was intended with the solid flat tappet so it makes all the right noises..

My own Pontiac I stuck with the stock hydraulic flat tappet for the simple reason of conforming to a rules package and trying to make the car go as quick as I could with stock parts. Otherwise that thing would definitely be a stroker with a roller cam, and it may very well end up that way in the future.

I'd like to do a solid flat someday in a high-winding smaller engine, but I don't have a vehicle for it. The 505 will stay put for a long time and my other old one is a 72 K10 that I'd like to use as a truck. So most likely the truck will stay hydraulic flat tappet, it's a 1966 oval port 396.

Maybe I'll buy the wife an old Camaro or Nova one of these days so I can run that solid flat ...

I'll have to check some of your threads to read about your hydraulic flat Pontiac build, I don't race but I like reading about it.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by llwta76

Several yrs ago the lady I worked with said her husbands '65 GTO ( I saw it run high 9s at the Pontiac nationals) ran a BBC. Disappointed I asked "why"? She said Pontiacs blow up too much. My response ... "Not if you know how to build them" and I walked away. I for one can't understand people who snub their noses at Pontiacs like they're no good. Of coarse they're Chevy and Mustang lovers. At car shows all you see are Chevys and Mustangs. So much so that they've taken them over. My T/A is one of VERY few Pontiacs seen. I feel like I'm not wanted there by a lot of people. I'm proud of my car and just don't understand these jerks. I have no use for that environment.
My buddy ( has a T/A also ) has gotten a negative attitude especially towards anybody that would run a Chevy in a 60s-70s Pontiac. I have to admit that it's a slam to me too. Larry

That's been my complaint for decades. I don't have a problem with coming to terms that Pontiacs are few and far between, I came to grips with that a long time ago. What makes things bad are the diehards that can't appreciate anything else. We have Chevys and Fords here too, I like all that stuff. But to see how people respond when you drive something different is disheartening. Case in point...
I had a 71 Pontiac Ventura Sprint that came from the factory with a SBC. Neat car actually. But I could go to the local cruises with my 70 Formula (Pontiac powered of course) and all these Pontiac guys want to be your friend, park next to me sort of thing. The very next week I could show up with the Sprint and as soon as I popped the hood those same guys want absolutely nothing to do with me. Shows me right away what kind of people they are. Not a true car enthusiast if you ask me. So I have no use for people like that, it's not good for the hobby in general. What was even funnier is that these people that call themselves die hard Pontiac people don't even realize that is a factory installation, they think I actually put a SBC in it.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by llwta76

Several yrs ago the lady I worked with said her husbands '65 GTO ( I saw it run high 9s at the Pontiac nationals) ran a BBC. Disappointed I asked "why"? She said Pontiacs blow up too much. My response ... "Not if you know how to build them" and I walked away. I for one can't understand people who snub their noses at Pontiacs like they're no good. Of coarse they're Chevy and Mustang lovers. At car shows all you see are Chevys and Mustangs. So much so that they've taken them over. My T/A is one of VERY few Pontiacs seen. I feel like I'm not wanted there by a lot of people. I'm proud of my car and just don't understand these jerks. I have no use for that environment.
My buddy ( has a T/A also ) has gotten a negative attitude especially towards anybody that would run a Chevy in a 60s-70s Pontiac. I have to admit that it's a slam to me too. Larry

From what I remember, the BBC engines need to get into a tall deck before you get the huge displacement advantage over an aftermarket Pontiac, something like a 535 Pontiac vs. a 555 BBC. I'm not sure for street use there is a huge advantage for the BBC. But if you want to deal with the tall block stuff and build a 632 BBC, I don't know how on a dollar-for-dollar basis a Pontiac can compete with that.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by i82much

From what I remember, the BBC engines need to get into a tall deck before you get the huge displacement advantage over an aftermarket Pontiac, something like a 535 Pontiac vs. a 555 BBC. I'm not sure for street use there is a huge advantage for the BBC. But if you want to deal with the tall block stuff and build a 632 BBC, I don't know how on a dollar-for-dollar basis a Pontiac can compete with that.

Actually google is telling me you can do a 572 standard deck BBC. I'm not gonna lie, I love my Pontiac, but that is pretty tough to beat.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

I'd like to do a solid flat someday in a high-winding smaller engine, but I don't have a vehicle for it. The 505 will stay put for a long time and my other old one is a 72 K10 that I'd like to use as a truck. So most likely the truck will stay hydraulic flat tappet, it's a 1966 oval port 396.

Maybe I'll buy the wife an old Camaro or Nova one of these days so I can run that solid flat ...

I'll have to check some of your threads to read about your hydraulic flat Pontiac build, I don't race but I like reading about it.

It's stock and nothing special but something I've been trying to do for years is to see how quick it would go. Kind of gotten board with that though. I think I've either reached my limit with the know how, the parts, or I simply don't cheat enough to keep up with some of the other guys, lol.
I've been contemplating mothballing the original engine and building a stroker, something that looks stock. It serves double duty as my driver too so I have to keep a certain restraint with it.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It's stock and nothing special but something I've been trying to do for years is to see how quick it would go. Kind of gotten board with that though. I think I've either reached my limit with the know how, the parts, or I simply don't cheat enough to keep up with some of the other guys, lol.
I've been contemplating mothballing the original engine and building a stroker, something that looks stock. It serves double duty as my driver too so I have to keep a certain restraint with it.

There is nothing cooler than a daily driven classic if you ask me. I stopped because we had kids and things like anti-lock brakes, stability control, and side curtain airbags suddenly mattered to me.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

Actually google is telling me you can do a 572 standard deck BBC. I'm not gonna lie, I love my Pontiac, but that is pretty tough to beat.

Yeah the Siamese bore BBC stuff with standard decks can be built pretty large. I have a GM 502 here that I'm going to do something with soon. With it's 4.470 stock bore and a little 4" crank it's already a 502. 540 is easy to accomplish with a 4.250 crank and that falls right in. Can even go slightly bigger on bore or crank or both and reach 565 or so without much effort. You start getting the wrist pin up into the ring package which bothers some people but that's been going on for decades with all brand engines and proven to be fine.

What dad did with his Pontiac was sort of the extreme on the other end. Since Pontiacs typically have small bores, and the MR1 is no different. He went with a 4.350" bore on his MR1 to leave some meat for future builds, but those things accept an enormous crank without trouble. So he bought a 4.750" crank and stuffed it in there for 571 cubes in a standard deck block.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yeah the Siamese bore BBC stuff with standard decks can be built pretty large. I have a GM 502 here that I'm going to do something with soon. With it's 4.470 stock bore and a little 4" crank it's already a 502. 540 is easy to accomplish with a 4.250 crank and that falls right in. Can even go slightly bigger on bore or crank or both and reach 565 or so without much effort. You start getting the wrist pin up into the ring package which bothers some people but that's been going on for decades with all brand engines and proven to be fine.

What dad did with his Pontiac was sort of the extreme on the other end. Since Pontiacs typically have small bores, and the MR1 is no different. He went with a 4.350" bore on his MR1 to leave some meat for future builds, but those things accept an enormous crank without trouble. So he bought a 4.750" crank and stuffed it in there for 571 cubes in a standard deck block.

will that 571 live with extended street driving? I heard those long strokes can be tough on side loading. It will be a long time before I have to pull my 505 but a 571 sure is fun to think about ...

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

will that 571 live with extended street driving? I heard those long strokes can be tough on side loading. It will be a long time before I have to pull my 505 but a 571 sure is fun to think about ...

So far it's been perfect. I think it's been together going on 6 years now, maybe more like 7? Time flies. I'm not sure on the exact mileage on it currently but we go on 2-300 mile round trips with it fairly often and it doesn't complain, starts with a blip of the key, runs cool, and overall generally seems to be a pretty happy engine.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

So far it's been perfect. I think it's been together going on 6 years now, maybe more like 7? Time flies. I'm not sure on the exact mileage on it currently but we go on 2-300 mile round trips with it fairly often and it doesn't complain, starts with a blip of the key, runs cool, and overall generally seems to be a pretty happy engine.

That's awesome. Nothing like a sweet hot rod.

[JLMounce]

My next build I'm thinking smaller.

I would really like to build a turbocharged 350. More than anything to just prove it's as capable in that environment as the "junkyard" 5.3. Many of the guys that do that reliably, start with a truck 5.3, go through it and replace the pistons and cam of their choice. Otherwise it's stock bottom end with new bearings, seals etc.

I firmly believe you can do the same with the Pontiac 350 and given equal parts, I bet it would make about the same power.

Would be a pretty basic deal. Stock crank and rods with good hardware and forged pistons. Might opt for a roller just because, but could easily go with a flat tappet. Keep the RPM's at 5500-5700. Stock heads, just a good valve job, probably a performer manifold to knock some weight off it and provide a square bore flange. TBI system capable of boost handling.

The goal would be north of 500hp and at or near stock driving manners. To my knowledge this isn't really something that's been experimented on without really going after the bottom end and going over the top with the build. This type of thing more closely represents kind of what this thread is about.

There's not a ton of information in regards to how strong the factory rods really are. It's widely known that they don't specifically like RPM, but within their specified limits, there's not much in the way of published information on how much they'll take. It's my belief that something like this would be fairly attainable. It's a bit expensive and time consuming for a proof on concept type deal, but that's hotrodding.

[carbking]

One thing I don't understand, assuming we are talking street cars, is the need for all of the horsepower

First gear in my 1974 GTO with Pontiac 350 is totally useless to drive in anger with the largest street radials I can fit under the fenders.

Engine has never been dynoed, and don't plan to dyno it. Builder, who shall remain anonymous per agreement, said 435~450 HP, and that is plenty on the street.

Maybe with custom chassis, slicks wider the intake manifolds, and what else I have no idea, one could get the power to the pavement.

As to the Pontiac vs corporate argument, I am an old geezer. Set out to build the '74 as Pontiac COULD have built it without "help" from the government. It came with a 350P, OK, it still has a 350P; but then I don't race it.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Jon.

[Lee]

I've put a 215 @ .050" intake HR in a stock headed Pontiac 400. How many others can say the same?

It made killer torque. On the same dyno, with another friend's 2010 Camaro SS, the SS made more HP at the wheels, but the Pontiac made more TQ at the wheels.

With stock heads, or even mild performance heads, a Pontiac is going to make more TQ than HP. As the CID's increase, the TQ is going to go even higher than the HP. People who fixate on making HP at the expense of TQ are throwing away a LOT of performance.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Lee

People who fixate on making HP at the expense of TQ are throwing away a LOT of performance.

So exactly where is the imaginary TQ / HP barrier line? I see that HP and TQ both coexist at all RPM.
For best performance optimize power at the RPM where the engine spends most of its time. Giving up power below 3300 is fine if you have a 3500 stall converter.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I know its not possible for a car to be gay. Its a car, right.
.

It is all iron, sheet metal and bolts that our imaginations place a label. to, nothing more. I've always cared about the physics that make things happen. In 2019 about time humanity moves beyond my team/ their team.

[76TA462]

I’ve had my 455 since 1980. Done lots of rebuilds-upgrades as the technology changed along the way. First upgrades were in the early 80s with 6X heads, early 70 cast iron intake, the sorts of the mid-eighties’ things that the home garage guy could do, and advice from Jim Hand and others. That aside, the greed for hp n tq n responsiveness pulled me away from being a purest, with the two greatest performance gains being more modern; first going roller cam with SD performance KRE heads, etc.; next was going to FI. Cheap, no. But high cr, quick revving, supper sounding. My goal was always to have a tire shredder maximus. Its very cool popping the hood and seeing a 455 in a Trans Am of this vintage. I am thinking of a new project using a second gen F-Body. Would I consider a LS, hell yes. Instant electronics and solid power, its being done over and over for a reason, and its way less painful of a process. But I will still continue with upgrades on the 455 as long as I can. Different strokes for different folks.

[JSchmitz]

I used to be a total snob when it came to seeing a late model engine in an old Pontiac. I've softened up a lot. I've had a '64 GTO since I was 16. I've had lots of Chevelles, etc also. I daily drive a 2011 RS SS Camaro convertible now. It has exhaust, air cleaner, and custom tune. Absolutely wonderful to drive. It screams and gets 20+ mpg with AFM turned off and driven hard. I can appreciate how nice an LS would be in an old muscle car.

[Scarebird]

I have both; KRE headed 440 in the Lemans, LS3 in the Trans Am.
Other than the Stratostreak having more push at the bottom end it is no comparison.

[Cliff R]

The last time I looked at either one they had 8 round pistons moving up and down in 8 round holes.

It's what you do with the compression, intake, exhaust, head flow, combustion chambers, camshaft selection and very close control of timing/fuel curves that make an engine what it is. There are parts out there to do pretty much whatever you want to with an Pontiac engine build IF you can quit using "old school" mentality and get away from traditional myths that abound on the Internet with these engines.

What is harder to do with a Pontiac build is to lighten up the spinning and reciprocating weight and come up with improved bore to stroke and rod length to stroke ratios AND have ultra-light components at the same time.

The LS and even the older SBC stuff will be superior in that regard but on the top side we have some excellent cylinder head choices with modern combustion chambers.

My own 455 is 11.3 to 1 compression and has lived just fine now on a steady diet of pump gas, even 87 octane sine 2009. Yes, I've ran it on 87 octane and it never pinged or even acted like it was going to ping. I still keep higher octane in it just to give me a "warm and fuzzy", but it is flawless everyplace if/when I've used it other than every once in a while on a really hot/humid day fully heat soaked it's tried to "run-on" a couple of times.

What folks need to do here is to forget all that regurgitated NONESENSE about "lowering compression to 9.5 to 1 for pump gas" and get the hell away from these frequently recommended on here "tiny cams" on tight LSA's. You are just shooting yourself in one foot then the other one following all that ridiculously outdated information......IMHO.......Cliff