[TRADERMIKE 2012]

What is the intake center line of the installed cam? That will answer your question.

After some more reading and memory searching I have come up with this: 1968-70 RA4 T 308/112 .470 87 320/115 .470 # 9794041 cam. I believe that the Melling factory did this : 115-112=3 divided by 2 = 1.5 +112 = 113.5 ICL. So "straight up" installation of the 041 cam I bought has the ICL built into the cam outright. Thus, one lines up the dots at 12 o'clock on top of each gear, with the piston on top dead center of the compression stroke.

Someone said to Degree the cam first , then install the 041 cam at 109 Degrees ICL. Thus, I will set the Crank pulley using the #4 setting giving me 4 degrees at the cam. Looks like this 109.0 +4=113. Also I might get the roller 1.6:1 inexpensive rockers and Rhoads Variable lifters. Using the 1.6 not 1.65 rockers should leave me without spring issues at the lower pockets having to be modified? Am I forgetting anything?

[67Fbird]

everything except dialing in the cam.
did the manufacturer GRIND the cam with the key at 113.5* or did they GRIND the ICL at 108* from the KEY. Different manufacturers do/did different things!!!! For Instance the Crane Muscle car cam "041" has a 113.5 LSA with a recommended install at 110* ICL.. THE CAM IS MADE TO GO IN WITHOUT ANY OFFSET KEYS AND BE AT 110*. Now in a perfect world YES that would and should happen....but do to manufacturing tolerances (ie timing chain slop, keyway clearances, etc...) it is easy to miss 2-3*. Also NOTE:

Thus, one lines up the dots at 12 o'clock on top of each Gear

dots face eachother...12'O'clock on the CRANK gear 6 O'clock on the cam gear..

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by 67Fbird

dots face eachother...12'O'clock on the CRANK gear 6 O'clock on the cam gear..

That's TDC Compression on #6.

Pontiac is both dots up for TDC Compression on #1.

Clay

[tc]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

.Using the 1.6 not 1.65 rockers should leave me with out spring issues at the lower pockets having to be modified?Am I forgetting anything?

The quote feature is a great thing to use.

You will need to check for pushrod clearance at the top of the head with different ratio rocker arms. If I was you, I would not spend any more money tiring to make the 041 cam more powerful. I do like the idle quality the Rhodes lifters provide.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tc

The quote feature is a great thing to use.

You will need to check for pushrod clearance at the top of the head with different ratio rocker arms. If I was you, I would not spend any more money tiring to make the 041 cam more powerful. I do like the idle quality the Rhodes lifters provide.

Originally I was trying to move the power band from up high toward the launch with out replacing the cam .This is the worn out #524886 cam in my 1967 428 ci Ho with th 400, I liked the way it functioned, should have put a copy of it back in but I experimented with the "041" and top end is just what I got . Too much I think now. This thread is about moving the power range in the "041" I have installed now while keeping the "041". Using a comp cams adjustable timing Gear chain set to gain some of the top end back were I can use it to take off.

[Stan Weiss]

The problem is you have no idea what ICL the cam is installed at. If at dot to dot the cam is in at 113 ICL or greater then advancing it 8 degrees just might help. But what if at dot to dot the cam is already advanced some?

Stan

[tc]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

. This thread is about moving the power range in the "041" I have installed now while keeping the "041". Using a comp cams adjustable timing Gear chain set to gain some of the top end back were I can use it to take off.

Well, I used information I read on this forum using the search function to set the 041 cam ICL. . I think 109 ICL was on the cam card and that is what I set it at. Been a few years but I think I used a 1 1/2 or 2 degree cam key ( I made my own ) to arrive at that 109. Also, I know the chain had about 1 degree slop, so I needed to take that slop out with the cam key and the cam was off a little.

As stated before, the cam has plenty of low end, but does not pull at the high end ( last half of the track ) compared to my old cam. Picture of car with a 428, using the 041 cam, 670 heads ported by me, 9.7 compression ratio. This car is a blast to drive around town, especially from a stop light!

Hey, what were you saying about lifters and 7000 miles? I thought I read that from one of your posts.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tc

Well, I used information I read on this forum using the search function to set the 041 cam ICL. . I think 109 ICL was on the cam card and that is what I set it at. Been a few years but I think I used a 1 1/2 or 2 degree cam key ( I made my own ) to arrive at that 109. Also, I know the chain had about 1 degree slop, so I needed to take that slop out with the cam key and the cam was off a little.

As stated before, the cam has plenty of low end, but does not pull at the high end ( last half of the track ) compared to my old cam. Picture of car with a 428, using the 041 cam, 670 heads ported by me, 9.7 compression ratio. This car is a blast to drive around town, especially from a stop light!

Hey, what were you saying about lifters and 7000 miles? I thought I read that from one of your posts.

After some more reading and memory searching I have come up with this: 1968-70 RA4 T 308/112 .470 87 320/115 .470 # 9794041 cam. I believe that the Melling factory did this : 115-112=3 divided by 2 = 1.5 +112 = 113.5 ICL. So "straight up" installation of the 041 cam I bought has the ICL built into the cam outright. Thus, one lines up the dots at 12 o'clock on top of each gear, with the piston on top dead center of the compression stroke.

Someone said to Degree the cam first , then install the 041 cam at 109 Degrees ICL. Thus, I will set the Crank pulley using the #4 setting giving me 4 degrees at the cam. Looks like this 109.0 +4=113. Also I might get the roller 1.6:1 inexpensive rockers and Rhoads Variable lifters. Using the 1.6 not 1.65 rockers should leave me without spring issues at the lower pockets having to be modified? Am I forgetting anything?

Also, I Installed the 041 cam a few years ago With new Johnson lifters , timing Gears (first set) semi adjustable, chromemoly HD push rods and 7/16 hardened rocker screw in studs from Butler and new gaskets. I bought the melling 041 cam through Butler set up from the factory as stated above so all I had to do is install it with dots at 12 o'clock each. I now have about 7,000 miles on these new parts over about the past 5 years.

[Tom Vaught]

Most of the factory cams from CMC (Wolverine) were installed with the keyway ALREADY machined for the 4 degree advance (if memory serves me today). The Factory RA-IV Melling cams were ground exactly to GM specs with the keyway machined with no advance in the keyway.

If the camshaft DID have advance built into it, Rodney/David probably would have installed the 4 degree advance/ retard (with the key flipped around in the camshaft so that you could do the "dot to dot" you mentioned in your post above.

Not sure that Melling ground every replacement RA-IV camshaft with no advance.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Read this please:
What is the intake center line of the installed cam? That will answer your question. MIKES SECOND ANSWER TO THIS : after some more reading and memory searching I have come up with this: 1968L-70 RA4 T 308/112 .470 87 320/115 .470 # 9794041 cam.I believe that the Melling factory did this : 115-112=3 divided by 2 = 1.5 +112 = 113.5 ICL. So "straight up" installation of the "041" cam I bought has the ICL built into the cam outright. Thus, one lines up the dots at 12 o'clock on top of each Gear Piston on top dead center of the compression stroke when installing this cam in a Pontiac.Someone said to Degree the cam first , then install the "041" cam at 109 Degrees ICL. Thus, I will set the Crank pulley using the #4 setting giving me 4 degrees at the cam . looks like this 109.0 +4=113 . Also I might get the roller 1.6:1 inexpensive rockers and Rhoads Variable lifters.Using the 1.6 not 1.65 rockers should leave me with out spring issues at the lower pockets having to be modified?Am I forgetting anything? Also, I Installed the "041" cam a few years ago With new Johnson lifters , timing Gears (first set) semi adjustable, chromemoly HD push rods and 7/16 hardened rocker screw in studs from Butler and new gaskets. I bought the melling 041 cam through Butler set up from the factory as stated above so all I had to do is install it with dots at 12 o'clock each.I now have about 7,000 miles on these new parts over about the past 5 years.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Most of the factory cams from CMC (Wolverine) were installed with the keyway ALREADY machined for the 4 degree advance (if memory serves me today). The Factory RA-IV Melling cams were ground exactly to GM specs with the keyway machined with no advance in the keyway.

If the camshaft DID have advance built into it, Rodney/David probably would have installed the 4 degree advance/ retard (with the key flipped around in the camshaft so that you could do the "dot to dot" you mentioned in your post above.

Not sure that Melling ground every replacement RA-IV camshaft with no advance.

Tom V.

Tom,
The Melling Specs say 112 ICL 115 ECL which would mean a 113.5 LSA or 1.5 degrees advance.

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Most of the factory cams from CMC (Wolverine) were installed with the key way ALREADY machined for the 4 degree advance (if memory serves me today). The Factory RA-IV Melling cams were ground exactly to GM specs with the key way machined with no advance in the key way.

If the camshaft DID have advance built into it, Rodney/David Butler probably would have installed the 4 degree advance/ retard (with the key flipped around in the camshaft so that you could do the "dot to dot" you mentioned in your post above. My cam is at 12 o'clock dots up on both Gears so # 1 is on top dead center on the compression stroke.

Not sure that Melling ground every replacement RA-IV camshaft with no advance. I read that Melling was the manufacture for the Pontiac cams in this forum discussion.

Tom V.

The "041" cam is Great in that at 3000 rpm with the Gear Vendors on Automatic side overdrive in fourth gear say I am cruising at a very comfortable 80 mph with these 3.23 posi-traction four wheel disc set-up. I hate to loose this pro about this Pontiac "041" . Yes, the Pontiac engineers know what they are doing. All that testing and tuning pays off. This is why I am taking so long to get my vehicle perfect, as all of us are basically starting from scratch posthumously learning what the Pontiac engineers forgot.Tradermike out.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Tom,
The Melling Specs say 112 ICL 115 ECL which would mean a 113.5 LSA or 1.5 degrees advance.

Stan

Does this mean I can advance the timing at the crank 8 degrees to end up with 4 advanced degrees at the distributor and be safe in doing so? But what will my Cruising rpms be like at 80 mph? If for example, I would cruise at 70 mph at 3000 rpm to buy some front end torque, I think I could live with that. I understand that with out going back to the #524886 cam there is a trade off to deal with .

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Tom,
The Melling Specs say 112 ICL 115 ECL which would mean a 113.5 LSA or 1.5 degrees advance.

Stan MIKES ANSWER TO THIS : Does this mean I can advance the timing at the crank 8 degrees to end up with 4 advanced degrees at the distributor and be safe in doing so? But what will my Cruising rpms be like at 80 mph? If for example, I would cruise at 70 mph at 3000 rpm to buy some front end torque, I think I could live with that. I understand that with out going back to the #524886 cam there is a trade off to deal with .

Mike,
As I and others have said you need to degree the cam to see where it is actually installed. Dot to dot and / or an advance key are just guesses. Changing the ICL should do nothing to you Cruising RPM.

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
As I and others have said you need to degree the cam to see where it is actually installed. Dot to dot and / or an advance key are just guesses. Changing the ICL should do nothing to you Cruising RPM.

Stan

Going to search the net soon on 'How to degree your Cam" , I noticed there are some home made ways in the past on the web . Will they be accurate enough being I have brand new timing parts and no slop in the chain. I was planing to remove the valve covers to replace the gaskets soon anyway.Time to learn something, I am convinced you are correct. Can't be lazy when I am deep down into the engine as I am now. It always comes back to us in the end.

[1968GTO421]

Try this video by Crower:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3zGfQgYS5g

[tc]

Maybe you just need a higher stall torque converter to bring the rpm's up when you start from zero mph. I doubt you are going to get anyone to agree with you about advancing that cam to move the power band lower, to gain more power.

[Cliff R]

If you want more power at lower RPM's raise the static compression ratio, put a smaller cam it in, or add Rhoads lifters. You could also do a mix of the three.

You aren't chasing enough with moving the ICL to be worth the effort. I've done a lot of testing in that area and moved a RAIV cam 4 times in one of the 455 engines that powered the Ventura about 20 years ago. I tried 107ICL, 109ICL, 111ICL and 113ICL. The engine the best at 109ICL and almost as good at 111ICL. It slowed down at both the 107 and 113LSA positions.

I did drag strip and street testing after each movement. At the track it was the worst at 113ICL, and not much better at 107ICL. Even so I wasn't seeing much more than tenth or so and less than 2mph best to worst. On the street the engine was a little "lazy" at 113ICL and lost 60', ET and MPH over all other positions.

To my surprise the car also lost 60', ET and MPH down at 107ICL, so closing the intake early did NOT have the outcome I expected as we frequently see folks recommend others to "advance the cam for more low end torque". I suppose there is a point of no return for that sort of thing and keep in mind that advancing the intake closing point also drags the exhaust lobe ahead some with it and overlap doesn't change thru any of the movements.

The RAIV camshaft also has a LOT of overlap, well over 80 degrees at the seat. This requires higher compression for best results, and the smaller the engine you stuff one into the higher the compression needs to be.

I will admit here that I didn't read all the responses, so if I doubled up some info it wasn't intended.

I'll also give a +2 for getting a better torque converter. The right converter can turn a combo that just needs a little more torque multiplication and flash stall into an ANIMAL where before it was a little lackluster until it got wound up some........

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tc

Maybe you just need a higher stall torque converter to bring the rpm's up when you start from zero mph. I doubt you are going to get anyone to agree with you about advancing that cam to move the power band lower, to gain more power.

I thought I read that is how one "moves" the power band (not to gain any power) and why. Maybe I misunderstood what I read.

About the Torque Converter - I broke my original one months ago and have been testing to find out what was wrong. I suspected the torque converter from the start. I had to read and study about the TH400 transmission and torque converters for the last 4 months. I rebuilt the valve body with a B&M shift kit, cleaned the Governor tube screen, cleaned the pressure boost valve and used various additives to the transmission. I changed the vacuum modulator, too. The transmission got a little better, but ultimately failed.

Finally, I ran the vehicle for about 300 miles, and it was just getting worse over time. I pulled the torque Converter and the bushing was damaged because I went over a Tree root beneath an asphalt driveway causing damage to the bushing that slowly got worse until it completely failed. Now I am shopping for a new torque converter, here is were I am now : first I shopped Summit and they tried to sell me a Hughes # GM 20 BPO 400 BP, I cancelled that deal and shopped more and found this : ACC PERFORMANCE - Through Boss Hog # 46022 street bandit with 10" diameter, that is supposed to give me an extra 35 HP, I did not buy it because there was only 90 day Warranty. Next I went directly to Hughes so I can speak to any one who could answer my questions.

At that time I thought I might have a Switch Pitch converter, turns out to be negative on that idea. Hughes said the 10" converter will run to hot in my 428 ci Th 400 and Gear Vendors application. So they sell me this: GM 20 BPO HD 400 BP AND TELL ME THIS TC can BE USED IN A (RV) application. This is the Heavy Duty version of the one Summit almost sold me on.

The used torque converter that I removed had weld marks outside the casting and could have been a variable vane torque converter. I Sent the broken one in and they opened it and found it was to a TH 400 model. So since I never raced the car and went with Hughes advice I now have a brand new rebuilt torque converter on the shelf, waiting to go in.

Be careful, when I bought the torque converter from Hughes the salesman told me one thing and did not stick to his deal. So get the deal written up and emailed to your account,so they don't pull the same thing with you. They don't want the return core unless it is local and will keep your core after charging you shipping. I found out that it only costs $25.00 one way to ship through Summit. Hughes charged me $50 one way. This is what Kevin at Hughes sold me : $316.70 +$50 ship =$366.70 + $50 core =$416.70, so now I was to receive the return label to send my used TC back to Hughes and there is no label.

So me being an honorable person I send the TC back, at my own expense at a cost of $104, expecting a refund credit with my core refund. Kevin said, did you check your email for the core shipping label, yes i said, not there. So now Kevin said, that I should have reminded him to send the shipping label out to me instead of mailing the TC to him at my expense. I said don't I feel like a fool I should have kept the core, Kevin said " yes you should have kept the core". He should have sent the shipping label in the box with the new TC . Which I found out later they don't want the core if its too far away anyway. How come when I said I was going to send the TC to him, he did not stop and say hold it I will send you a shipping label. All I wanted to know is "if my used core was a Switch pitch or not" . And that question costs me nothing.

Note this, when I buy direct from the manufacture I expect to be treated like the customer is always right, even if they're wrong. This is what Sears thought me when I was young and that is how I treat customers since. I am not done dealing with Hughes on this one yet. Now that I got that off my chest where were we, oh did I buy the wrong TC, should I have gone with the smaller diameter, perhaps I should have started this thread before I went out to buy something.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tc

Maybe you just need a higher stall torque converter to bring the rpm's up when you start from zero mph. I doubt you are going to get anyone to agree with you about advancing that cam to move the power band lower, to gain more power.

This car had the # 524886 cam in it a few years ago. I installed 2 batt. in the trunk. Also added 2 heavy tool boxes and a small jack to keep the vehicle from fish tailing in the rain with the 3.23 gears and posi-traction. Now that I have the "041" cam in it and I have never removed the weight from the trunk because I have 8.5" tires all the way around. This car will still light them if I am not careful. All I am trying to do with the adjustable timing gear is to set the key to launch instead of leaving all the power range up were I don't need it . I won't be taking this vehicle to WFO any more unless I get "z" rated tires. The tires just can't take the speeds in excess of 80 mph according to cooper gt tire max ratings.

[Formulas]

Just advance that 041 and have fun, sounds like the only solution here