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Old 05-29-2023, 10:36 AM
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Default Points Ignition without 12v Wire Connected

After reading the total timing thread I'm wondering if my Crane x
XR- i unit may be causing me some issues.
Thinking of throwing set of points in the distributor but then I realized I have a Summit racing high torque mini starter and it only has one post for the ignition.
Right now I only have the resistor wire connected to the coil per Crane instructions.

If I put the points back in and only hook up the resistor wire what will be the issue, hard starting ?

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Old 05-29-2023, 10:49 AM
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In cold weather it may be hard to start since in the crank position with the stock set up the full 12 volts would have made a hotter spark.

In cold weather with the choke closed the air to fuel ratio needed goes 180 the other way from what is needed at normal engine temps.

And that rich of a mixture that is unvaporized is hard to light off.

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Old 05-29-2023, 10:51 AM
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You may use the "M" post on starter for "Start" to ignition coil.

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Old 05-29-2023, 01:58 PM
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I run a Ford solenoid on the fender well and one big fat cable to the starter with a jumper wire going to the S terminal on starter. That way I am not cooking the purple wire and the solenoid on starter lasts forever.
The Ford starter takes the initial "hit" . The contacts on the starters solenoid stay in good shape.
And all the wires are easy to get to. Works great for adjusting valves as you can turn the engine over with a screwdriver on easily hook up your remote starter switch.
And run Accel points triggering a MSD box which also makes the points last forever.
I never have ignition or starter issues since doing this.
You can take all those points replacements and throw them in the garbage.

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Old 05-29-2023, 02:01 PM
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x2 on ford solenoid and a box.

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Old 05-29-2023, 08:43 PM
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Ford starter solenoid also has ignition stud for full battery voltage while cranking if it has 4 terminals. Run a wire from that stud to positive side of coil.

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Old 05-30-2023, 07:34 AM
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It's why I don't run mini starters on the cars with points ignitions.

While there are ways to monkey around it, I'm not a fan. I would rather see the aftermarket make a mini starter with the damn R terminal, it's not that difficult.

They can and will however start without it, it's just not as optimal.

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Old 05-30-2023, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill S View Post
I have a Summit racing high torque mini starter and it only has one post for the ignition.
Existing purple (fades to pink with time and heat/weathering) wire goes to "S" terminal of the starter solenoid. Install a second wire on that "S" terminal to feed the coil with system voltage during cranking--but install a diode in that wire to PREVENT BACK-FEEDING THE "S" TERMINAL via the ignition.

Yes, this works better when the purple wire--and it's connections going back to the ignition switch, and then to the battery--are clean and tight, so they provide low voltage drop. Excess VD is a common problem with that purple wire, and in fact the entire wire harness on these old vehicles. Half the reason folks install a Ford-style solenoid on the fender is because that's easier than tracing-down the ancient wiring to repair excess resistance that causes the solenoid to not engage sometimes.

If you had a Chevy or Buick (same starter) there are Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction (PMGR) starters that still have the "R" terminal for bypassing the ignition ballast resistor. I don't know of any for Pontiac/Olds/Cadillac, though. They may exist, but I don't know about 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
I run a Ford solenoid on the fender well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatracer1 View Post
Ford starter solenoid
"Good Luck" using a Ford-style solenoid with a permanent-magnet "mini" starter.

The usual problem is that the starter is slow to disengage from the flywheel due to feed-back from the spinning armature within the magnet structure actually generating enough electricity to keep the solenoid engaged for awhile.

Result is worn teeth on the ring gear, worn teeth on the starter drive, and hateful grinding noise every time you let go of the key when the engine starts.


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Old 05-30-2023, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Existing purple (fades to pink with time and heat/weathering) wire goes to "S" terminal of the starter solenoid. Install a second wire on that "S" terminal to feed the coil with system voltage during cranking--but install a diode in that wire to PREVENT BACK-FEEDING THE "S" TERMINAL via the ignition.

Yes, this works better when the purple wire--and it's connections going back to the ignition switch, and then to the battery--are clean and tight, so they provide low voltage drop. Excess VD is a common problem with that purple wire, and in fact the entire wire harness on these old vehicles. Half the reason folks install a Ford-style solenoid on the fender is because that's easier than tracing-down the ancient wiring to repair excess resistance that causes the solenoid to not engage sometimes.

If you had a Chevy or Buick (same starter) there are Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction (PMGR) starters that still have the "R" terminal for bypassing the ignition ballast resistor. I don't know of any for Pontiac/Olds/Cadillac, though. They may exist, but I don't know about 'em.




"Good Luck" using a Ford-style solenoid with a permanent-magnet "mini" starter.

The usual problem is that the starter is slow to disengage from the flywheel due to feed-back from the spinning armature within the magnet structure actually generating enough electricity to keep the solenoid engaged for awhile.

Result is worn teeth on the ring gear, worn teeth on the starter drive, and hateful grinding noise every time you let go of the key when the engine starts.
i have a mini starter and a ford solenoid and no problems.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...6&postcount=16

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Old 05-30-2023, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Existing purple (fades to pink with time and heat/weathering) wire goes to "S" terminal of the starter solenoid. Install a second wire on that "S" terminal to feed the coil with system voltage during cranking--but install a diode in that wire to PREVENT BACK-FEEDING THE "S" TERMINAL via the ignition.

The installation of a diode into a 12 V feed wire to the coil would work fine, IMO...........

I've never used a mini starter on any of my Stratostreak engines, plus I don't have any with points in them still, so I can't speak from experience. The idea though is sound, to use a circuit with a diode to prevent the starter from staying engaged from feedback.

I have seen dissenting views written where it says the ford solenoid approach to a GM style starter is less desirable than keeping the GM designed wiring system. Since the GM and ford starters are of different designs, there are drawbacks to combining the two wiring systems. I can't recall the reason, but if you search it you can probably find the reasoning. I'm sure someone will post that they've used the ford system on a GM car flawlessly for 50 years, but there was an article I read for reason(s) to not use it. It may have been what Shurkey cited about it staying engaged too long due to spinning down.

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Old 05-30-2023, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Existing purple (fades to pink with time and heat/weathering) wire goes to "S" terminal of the starter solenoid. Install a second wire on that "S" terminal to feed the coil with system voltage during cranking--but install a diode in that wire to PREVENT BACK-FEEDING THE "S" TERMINAL via the ignition.
.
Thanks, it looks like this issue has been known and an off the self solution is available:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...hoCKhIQAvD_BwE

I'll swap in the points to see if it runs better, then get the diode.

I don't want to be "that guy" blaming Cliff's carb !

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Old 05-30-2023, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Existing purple (fades to pink with time and heat/weathering) wire goes to "S" terminal of the starter solenoid. Install a second wire on that "S" terminal to feed the coil with system voltage during cranking--but install a diode in that wire to PREVENT BACK-FEEDING THE "S" TERMINAL via the ignition.

Yes, this works better when the purple wire--and it's connections going back to the ignition switch, and then to the battery--are clean and tight, so they provide low voltage drop. Excess VD is a common problem with that purple wire, and in fact the entire wire harness on these old vehicles. Half the reason folks install a Ford-style solenoid on the fender is because that's easier than tracing-down the ancient wiring to repair excess resistance that causes the solenoid to not engage sometimes.

If you had a Chevy or Buick (same starter) there are Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction (PMGR) starters that still have the "R" terminal for bypassing the ignition ballast resistor. I don't know of any for Pontiac/Olds/Cadillac, though. They may exist, but I don't know about 'em.




"Good Luck" using a Ford-style solenoid with a permanent-magnet "mini" starter.

The usual problem is that the starter is slow to disengage from the flywheel due to feed-back from the spinning armature within the magnet structure actually generating enough electricity to keep the solenoid engaged for awhile.

Result is worn teeth on the ring gear, worn teeth on the starter drive, and hateful grinding noise every time you let go of the key when the engine starts.
So not true I do not even know where to start. I did this way back around 2000. Bought a cheap CAT SFI flexplate and a mini starter from Summit.
I never, ever had problems. When first installed I used a 1/8" drill bit in the crotch of the teeth engagement. Got it by tilting the starter with a 1/2" flat washer under the starters inside mounting bolt between starter and block.
As per instructions.
Never had any metal flakes, grinding issues , starter staying engaged, not engaging. A system in perfect working order for 20 years of bracket racing 2 classes with lots of hot starts when I went deep in rounds ( 50+ NHRA 1sts and 2nds) I am not one of those racers who lets their engine run in the lanes. I start and stop the engine with each movement forward in the lanes.
I want the engine, once up to operating temp, as cold as I can get it before I start my burnout.
The only problems you could say was hitting the starter again before the engine completely stopped spinning. We all have done that. There is a couple little marks on the flexplate from that happening.
But that flexplate is in perfect working order after 20 years, little wear.
The starter drive actually looks perfect and has never been changed.
I bought one of those MSD starters on sale but I think I am just going to run the Summit starter on the new engine.
I have one of those high dollar Blanchard ground TCI flexplates for the new engine.
The Ford solenoid combined with the cast iron distributor single point triggering a MSD 7-AL has to be one of the best improvements to my car I have ever done.
Simply never, ever have starter issues or ignition issues period.
Only ignition deal I have ever had was Chumpion spark plugs falling apart.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:52 PM
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Starter.
The idea for doing this came from my brother reading about it in Hot Rod magazine back when he was in High School.
One big fat wire going to starter with a jumper wire. I have done this to daily drivers too of different makes.
Tried it, works.
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:40 PM
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I always thought IMI starters MINI , had a terminal for purple wire... WHICH provides 12V during crank...then when running "black wire" , with resistor in it, drops voltage for points to run. Maybe not applicable in this case. Crane XR-1 never did run right for me, timing always seem to be way off.... run fine, then in the morning for some reason, it would be 20-40 degrees advanced... not good .

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Old 05-30-2023, 08:22 PM
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So Hot Rod has now updated their starter fix. They now want you to use the purple wire to activate a 30 amp 5 post relay that will send power to the GM solenoid switch from a thick gauge hot wire that comes from the battery to the relay, and then another thick gauge wire to pull in the GM solenoid on the starter.

The idea is the large gauge wire doesn't have to go all around the interior of the car and through numerous switches, thereby not having a voltage drop by the time it needs maximum voltage to activate the GM solenoid switch. With 12 volts going to the GM starter it can overcome the heat issues that can cause voltage drop.

Using the ford starter relay introduces another set of contact points into the battery cable circuit, that can also cause a voltage drop, where you most need it to not have one.

As I predicted, there be at least one post that they have successfully used the ford solenoid for 50 years without any problems whatsoever. I do see the logic of not having 2 contact sets in the battery cable circuit, instead of just one, to potentially cause more resistance.

Evidentially Hot Rod has updated their recommendations for hot start work arounds. The 12 volt bypass wire for points could be hooked to terminal 87, but would still need a diode to stop feedback. If the GM starter solenoid had an R terminal then it could be hooked to it, either way would get you 12V current during starter cranking.

New 30 amp relay schematic:


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Old 05-31-2023, 03:54 AM
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Better yet:
Copper strap or heavy wire from positive post to S terminal on GM solenoid and then Pos cable to cold side of Ford solenoid. Attach "start" wire to S term on Ford solenoid.
The battery cable to the starter is only hot when I hit the key to crank it.
Use the R terminal on Ford relay to ign. coil for "start".
Simple and safe.

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Old 05-31-2023, 04:47 AM
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There are no downsides to using a Ford solenoid, none. The starter does not engage too long. It works like stock, only better. No purple wire to get cooked, no giant starter to get heat soaked. Solenoid on starter lasts forever.
Anyone see some eaten up worn teeth on the ring gear in the pics ?
Anyone see teeth on the starter drive worn ? Metal shavings ?
There has never been any hateful noises of any kind when I take my thumb off the start button.
The dissenting opinions amount to just someones idea that does not work.

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Old 05-31-2023, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
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Better yet:
Copper strap or heavy wire from positive post to S terminal on GM solenoid and then Pos cable to cold side of Ford solenoid. Attach "start" wire to S term on Ford solenoid.
The battery cable to the starter is only hot when I hit the key to crank it.
Use the R terminal on Ford relay to ign. coil for "start".
Simple and safe.
This is how I ran my '65 LeMans for 20 years without any hot start issues, worked well.

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Old 05-31-2023, 07:26 AM
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I agree, it does work, I've done it in the past with no ill affect as far as function

My gripe is having to add more crap to the car, another solenoid, more wiring, just to work around something that a mini starter should have had in the first place.
It's not like it would cost the manufacture a fortune to add a terminal for us points guys and keep us from Jerry rigging a fix around it.

For the record I've never once needed a Ford solenoid to cure any heat soak issue. Not with a big starter, a small starter, headers, or with ram air manifolds.

I guess the good news for me is that some of you have mentioned that a few minis now have an "R" terminal. I'll have to reinvestigate that because my experience hasn't popped up any. In fact I talked to Robb (Robbmc) about this very subject a couple years ago when I had to swap a solenoid on one of his starters. Turns out it's a simple Mitsubishi starter, he gave me the part number so I could just go to napa and get a solenoid. Points being is that there is no chance of an "R" terminal being added to that starter since it's an outsourced foreign unit from a foreign manufacture.

The other killer for me is that I won't use a mini without a pinion support either so that shelves about 90 percent of the other brands.

Sounds like I'm creating a small market for a good starter that does everything for those of us that are a little picky. I don't see it happening though. Which is why I run mini starters only on the electronic ignition cars, Robbmc on the Pontiacs with pinion support option and use the LS mini starter on the Chevrolets with large flywheels (has pinion support) but on cars I run points (4 of them) I stick to oem starters.

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Old 05-31-2023, 11:31 AM
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I use the ford solenoid and a RobbMC ministarter. The main reason I use the ford solenoid is to turn off all power to the starter when not cranking. I've had 2 fires in my first '67 LeMans from the B+ wire melting from header heat.

And yes, I had it routed as properly as possible through the cable tube that mounts to the rear of the head. The RobbMC starter allowed clocking the starter as far away from the headers as possible. My current car had a stock starter and headers when I bought it. The B+ wire was turning black and starting to melt. It was the first thing I replaced on the car.

I have had the PM starter run-on issue with the solenoid S wire and the B+ cable connected together at the ford solenoid. The starter would stay engaged for several seconds after the engine started. A permanent magnet starter will act like a generator and keep itself engaged, even when the Ford solenoid is OFF. This will happen if you tie the S and B+ wires from a RobbMC starter together. I kept shimming, thinking I didn't have enough clearance. The behavior stopped once I put the starter S wire on the Ford Solenoid trigger wire (purple wire from engine harness).

What I do is put a normal wire in place of the resistor RUN wire in the engine harness. I connect that 16AWG wire to the coil + of a MSD RTR distributor. I run another 16AWG wire from there to the R terminal on the Ford solenoid. Another wire goes from there to the coil of a 70A relay. The 70A relay contact is fused to B+. So when I turn the key ON, the IGN gets power from the stock harness and the accy relay pulls in. The relay powers my gauges/elec choke/enable wire to electric fans/other accys direct from the battery. the Ford solenoid provides power from B+ when cranking, because the engine harness RUN wire goes dead in crank. Everything is fused and easily accessible if I want to add more loads to the accy relay.

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