#81  
Old 03-27-2004, 10:06 PM
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Not only is my car running cooler, It isnt a monster to start after running it all day long!

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  #82  
Old 03-27-2004, 11:43 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All sounds good to me. By the way, PMDRACER where are you? You started all this and you just sit back and let us go at it while you chuckle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm right here soaking up the info. Unlike some people in this world (no implications to anyone here!!! Speaking of my boss.) I know when to shut my trap and listen.
Anyway, I've been doing some trial and error myself. After changing over to the cast impeller, the water temps dropped considerably on the freeway. It used to run at 200-210 all the time, even on really cold nights. (BTW - new 4 core radiator, new HD fan clutch, 160 degree t-stat, etc.) Well, a couple of nights ago the temps dropped to 50 degrees outside, and while doing 80MPH my temp sat at 160 degrees. But when I got off the freeway and drove on the street that same night, I was back to 200 degrees. What I did next was reconnect the vacuum advance. I had been running without it because of serious pinging at 200 degrees. Now I run about 180 on the street, and 160 on the freeway.
I have taken my old stamped impeller water pump and bolted a gasket and new plate to it. The gaps were all less than 1/8th inch.
When time permits, Jack Blum and I are thinking of making a flow bench of sorts and testing cast vs stamped, differences in gaps between the vanes and plates, etc.

Oh, and 4 things to add to the list.
1. No matter if you are running a flex fan or the stock solid fan with a solid spacer or clutch, the blades of the fan must stick out of the fan shroud at least 1/3. This gives the fan/shroud combo a direct in and out path, creating a moving column of air to follow.
2. Seal the shroud and the radiator together. Any gaps open between the shroud and radiator will allow air in through there, instead of pulling through the radiator. Use rubber sheet material to seal the gaps, or trunk weatherstrip glued to the inside of the shroud.
3. Same goes for the radiator to the core support. All that air being shoved through the grilles is free cooling. Make it all go through the radiator, not around it.
4. The small air dam bolted to the core support underneath the car will create a vacuum behind it, drawing more air through the radiator. The air dam for the '70 A-body the PY sells may not be correct for a '71-'72, but it fits perfectly.

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462 cid/ 6x-4/ TH400/ 3.36:1/ 28x10.5/ 3880#/ 12.35 @ 109.36/ 1.69 60 ft/ 4 wheel disc brakes/ 15 mpg
  #83  
Old 03-28-2004, 04:57 AM
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Good info PMDRacer, I apologize for picking at you, you've been busy!
I agreed with Malky
"Pontiac designed these cooling systems to cope with Death Valley ambient temps, fully loaded vehicles, towing, etc., but now they cannot handle gentle cruising about town!"
I could remember when this Goat was newer and having towed baots in 97 degree heat with a 195 thermostat, and it staying right there on the guage. Knew it had been right, and kept trying to find the key, and "then along came George, sweet talking George"! Well, maybe that's not the way the song went originally, but I just changed it to fit our situation. Keep the good news coming. This is fun.
Charles

  #84  
Old 03-28-2004, 11:43 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Pontiac designed these cooling systems to cope with Death Valley ambient temps....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally, I think part of the problem is that the EPA and others have forced things to the point that when I rebuilt my 350 15 years ago, the hot tank process made that block absolutely virgin. Now, the so called 'hot tank' we have won't even remove the paint. Do you think the cooling passages are clean if the solution won't even take off paint? Shot blasting leaves crap everywhere. Just my opinion.

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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
-RONALD REAGAN

462 cid/ 6x-4/ TH400/ 3.36:1/ 28x10.5/ 3880#/ 12.35 @ 109.36/ 1.69 60 ft/ 4 wheel disc brakes/ 15 mpg
  #85  
Old 03-28-2004, 11:52 AM
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Hey Gang: I'm currently soaking up some sunshine in the Southwest, but I thought I would check in. It's gratifying to hear that quite a few members are having success at reducing their engine temps. I know what Old Goat was saying about it being a real nuisance to constantly check the gauge and worry about engine temps. I'ts a relief when it can be cured by something relatively simple.

It's also a testimonial to the Pontiac crowd and this BBS as a forum to be able to exchange these ideas quickly.

Thanx to everyone who offered suggesstions, Malky, who gave us some engineering info, all the others who are doing real world testing, and PMDracer, who started this whole thing and now volunteered to do some testing and data collection.

Happy motoring!

Now I'll be monitoring and watching that bank account in the Grand Caymans grow.......

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  #86  
Old 03-29-2004, 01:16 AM
big_gto big_gto is offline
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Had to remove the radiator to repair a couple of leaks; it's a two-core crossflow. Since the radiator has to wait in line at the repair shop, it would've been a shame not to check that water pump impeller-to-divider plate clearence. Sure enough, there was .140" inch clearence. Temps were in the 205-210 degree range just before the radiator stated leaking. Running staight water for past two weeks has the temps at 230 to 240 degrees, expectedly. The water pump is a reman unit but don't know how old it is. The impeller is cast with eight fins. The only numbers on the housing is "G28". Naturally the divider plate is getting a real beating tonight!

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  #87  
Old 03-29-2004, 09:52 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Naturally the divider plate is getting a real beating tonight! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you sir, may I have another!

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462 cid/ 6x-4/ TH400/ 3.36:1/ 28x10.5/ 3880#/ 12.35 @ 109.36/ 1.69 60 ft/ 4 wheel disc brakes/ 15 mpg
  #88  
Old 03-29-2004, 10:49 AM
ERIC17621 ERIC17621 is offline
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OK, I need to follow up to clear up George's perfect record! I am the only one so far that posted, and George’s suggestion did not completely solve my overheating problem (although it did make it better) well, it was my fault. My rear carburetor had some carbon build up on it, and it was preventing it from fully closing when I wasn't using it, so it was running too lean. Once I discovered that, I tore the card apart, rebuild it, and cleaned it up. Now the car is right where it is supposed to be. 180-190 all the time. So, once again George, you have your perfect record back! 100% effective! What was that retirement account # again?

  #89  
Old 03-30-2004, 10:05 AM
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Isn't this exciting ?!

RR will probably not sponsor our page anymore.

And it's a FREE fix !

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  #90  
Old 03-30-2004, 11:06 AM
ERIC17621 ERIC17621 is offline
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Well... a RR is still lighter I guess It all makes so much sense now. Our cars did not roll off the assembly line overheating, and they didn't need a $500 radiator! And unlike Ch#vy, our water pumps don't have the luxury of being a completely sealed unit, with preset clearances. It is just over the years that people have stopped paying attention to the clearance, or didn't know to check it. Well I do now, and I am very glad George brought it to our attention! Best yet, it only took about an hour of work to fix it.

  #91  
Old 03-30-2004, 10:52 PM
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I just got a replacement water pump for my 67 GTO 400. I was having an overheating problem at idle (240 deg!). It ran at about 200-210 at speed. I read all of the comments and went to Autozone and ordered a replacement pump. When I got there I as disappointed to find that the pump was a stammped steel replacement. It is made by ASC industries. My question is, my original pump wasn't bad to begin with and it was the cast impellor. My clearence between the divider plate and the pump was way to big. Should I just go with my stock and decrease the clearence? Is the replacement pump a better pump? Should I use it with the proper clearence? Who makes the best 8 bolt config water pump on the market?

  #92  
Old 03-31-2004, 05:20 AM
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Maddoc,
Not having a stamped impellor to compare to, I would put my faith in pmdracer's observation. I would not use a stamped impellor at all, that's what started this whole post. Why not try to find a parts store that handles the Cardone pump I used. It fits and works very well. This is assuming that all Cardone pumps are of the same construction and size of impellor as the one I got. Part # and everything documented with as much detail as I could muster. Go back in here and re-read my post with the pictures. Trust me, it works and I am not being paid by Cardone. The way I came up with that particular one, was to go to http://www.partsamerica.com/PartDeta...ype=54&PTSet=A
Then I found a local parts store that could supply me with this pump. Auto Zone was not even in my search list, too many previous disappointments with their stuff. Of course, you have to find a parts man that will do more than punch the year and make into a computer waiting for a number to jump out at him. Good luck and please let us know how you succeeded.
Charles

  #93  
Old 03-31-2004, 06:47 AM
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I'm a little green here but have been reading this post faithfully and I have a question.......can anyone help me by telling me, or better yet, showing me the difference between a stamped impellor and a cast impellor? Thanks!

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Old 03-31-2004, 09:40 AM
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Stamped: die cut metal center, with fins attached to the metal star in the center to push the water
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:42 AM
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Cast: the impeller is a solid one-piece cast unit with raised fins:
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Old 03-31-2004, 12:16 PM
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Guys,
I'm running a stamped impellor pump in my 68 Firebird. The key is to get the backing plates as close as possible to the pump vanes and then tune the rest of your cooling system as needed depending on what modifications have been made to the engine and driveline. For those running close to stock configurations, just getting all the factory components working to the original spec should do the trick. Those of us that have made "modifications" - myself included - all bets are off. Check the other post "Do I need a Rodney" - good stuff. -- Brian

  #97  
Old 03-31-2004, 07:23 PM
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I did the clearance thing this weekend, and it got me maybe 5 degrees, down to 205 from 210. I still have a couple of other things to mess with (t-stat), and the carb mixture settings sounds like something I might want to take a look at. Question: If I had a carb that was adjusted so far out of whack as to cause hot running temps, wouldn't that also cause emissions probs? I haven't had any problems passing in the last 5 years.

Overall, I think the plate mod is a great idea, but probably not what is currently ailing my ride. Thanks to everyone!

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  #98  
Old 03-31-2004, 07:31 PM
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Brian,
Sorry, I cannot buy that statement. To borrow your quote from the other topic;

“In my opinion, you need to upgrade the radiator to an Aluminum RR or other brand (I'm running a BeCool custom for the 67-69 Firebird). It makes a huge difference at highway speeds. I tend to run a little hot crawling around town (180 - 190 range), but on the highway I'll drop down into the 170 range - with oil temp in the pan ~ 200 - 210. With your engine, convertor, and gears - you are going to make some heat. No way a stock configuration is going to work. What keeps me cool:
Aluminum Radiator
Flex Fan
16" Electric Fan Front of Radiator (Pusher)
Stamped Impellor Water Pump (Yes, stamped)
Gutted Thermostat
No Heater Core
Bypass Blocked (between the water pump/intake)Mostly Water for Coolant mixture with some wetter and water pump additives.”

My thoughts are that if you had a pump that moved water efficiently, you would not be overheating at low speeds, when heat generation should be less, what with the “improvements”(?) you have made to make the air flow and water flow through the radiator better. Agreed, an aluminum radiator is more efficient at exchanging heat, but your other modifications are questionable. If you had a good “pumper” at the “heart” of the system, maybe some of the other things would not have had to be done. I just cannot believe a stamped impellor can be as efficient as a cast one such as the one’s in the pictures above. Grabbing a chunk of water and throwing it, as compared to causing to flow smoothly & efficiently just does not make sense.
Worked on a lot of water pumps for wells, irrigation pumps, sump pumps, boat motors, etc., and have never seen a serious pump have stamped vanes in them. Must be a reason....
Not wanting to start an argument here, and will not, but your idea does not fit anywhere in the KISS principle parameters. The simple fix works very, very well for me.

Charles

  #99  
Old 04-04-2004, 12:30 PM
soupman soupman is offline
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hey guys, been reading your post. Before I pulled my 455HO, it never ran hot, about 180 all the time. It has a 160 T-stat, 3-core radiator and original water pump. I've attached a picture.
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  #100  
Old 04-04-2004, 12:33 PM
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I pulled the water pump to check my clearance. I have never had it off. It was close to .100 and has a cast impeller. This never overheated and shows that factory equipped cars didn't overheat.
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