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#1
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To rebuild stock AC or convert to vintage air?
Hi all, I have a 75 TA with a stock 400/th350 auto that had factory AC. Everything appears to still be there except for the compressor and compressor brackets.
I will most likely spend a few hundred on brackets and a compressor regardless. I know I can rebuild the stock system, however I am wary of re-using now 44 year old parts as even if they do work they could fail at any time. The next option is to use a full vintage air kit. At this point I'm leaning towards that as Pontiac parts are thin on the ground in Australia where I live. If I was going to rebuild the stock system I'd be looking at: -new compressor -new brackets -possibly new vacuum switch and tubing -new heater core (which I have) -possibly new evaporator core -possibly new blower motor and fan (which i have) -any other bits that arise/need rebuilding Originality is not a great concern, but I will be keeping the stock stuff in case some weirdo purist wants stock AC over vintage air if I go that way. Does anyone have any thoughts either way? |
#2
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I would see no need to reinvent the wheel here. All of the parts for your system are available here. https://www.oldairproducts.com/categ...lacement-parts I recently bought most of my AC parts from them. The qualtiy was at least as good as OEM, possibly better on some items. I am also converting to 134a while i'm at it. I would highly recommend using a new compressor. They have improved shaft seals to take care of the leaking shaft seal that ends up slinging all of the oil out the front of the compressor. Both new A6 style (OEM) and after market styles are available. None of the remanufacturers use the new double lip seal, but if you rebuild your compressor yourself they are available.
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"I know just enough to keep me here, but not enough to get me out" Last edited by Cardo; 04-06-2019 at 11:47 AM. |
#3
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I have the VA kit, I would stick with the stock R12 unit
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#4
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Hmm, I'm kind of keen to just start fresh with everything new. I have seen that site before, but the cost and shipping will end up similar to the VA kit?
How come your stay stock over the VA? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk |
#5
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The VA setup is too "hotroddy" for me - essentially a one size fits all kits with mods to bolt up to the F body. The OEM setup is better engineered and is quieter, flows better.
The F mounting system is a piece of crap - poorly designed. |
#6
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With the VA system, you will lose the ability to have fresh air (vent). The evap & heater core are both inside the case, along with the blower motor, it just does not have a way to bring in fresh air.
On my '73, I installed a Sanden compressor, parallel flow condenser, new drier, POA replaced with a pressure switch, and new hoses. I removed the stock evaporator, flushed it, pressure tested it, and reused it. I got a lot of the parts, and great advice, from Classic Auto Air out of Florida. Oh, there are two compressor mounts for Sandens on Pontiacs. One is 3 simple pieces, with the pivot piece mounting on the bosses of the side of the head, using both bosses. The other is 2 pieces, with the part mounting to the front of the head has two plates with spacers welded between them, and a variety spacers and bolts. The second version only bolts to the forward boss on the side of the head (and I had to elongate the hole to get it to fit, as it was drilled about 1/4" off.) I've installed BOTH versions. VA is currently providing the second version with their Pontiac kits, but used to provide the 1st version. For me, the FIRST version works better, I believe all three pieces are Pontiac specific. I suspect the 2nd version uses 2 Pontiac parts, but one "universal" bracket. I had to remove the valve cover in order to get the belt on (compressor hits the valve cover, even though there is nearly a third of the adjustment "groove" still left. Even worse, at around 75-80% of the adjustment, the bracket "cams over" and you LOSE belt tension. The bracket kit I like looks like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-350...53.m1438.l2649 This is the 2nd: https://www.ss396.com/part/VA-141001-PPA.html
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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'. '67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home |
#7
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If you decide to keep your original AC and you convert to R134A make sure you change all your hoses to the new style that are lined.
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#8
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Ok, thanks for the tips. I'm thinking I might stay with the stock system and rebuild it/update it to R134A.
Lee - that bracket kit seems to be different to most of the bracket sets I'm finding on ebay, I'm guessing the Sanden 508 is different to the larger compressors they had? The sets I'm finding have a heap of parts like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-1979-P...8AAOSwwRtcqo4l https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-1981-P...oAAOSwBBpbuhMt https://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-Pontia...0AAOSwD9dbaTas If I decide to rebuild the stock system have I covered everything I need with: -Sanden 508 brackets -new 508 compressor -new lines -flush and check evaporator and use if ok -flush, check, reuse original condenser if possible or new -new drier -VIR eliminator kit -new blower motor which I have -rebuild heater box -new heater core -NOS or rebuilt HVAC control switch -new vacuum lines if possible (does anyone make or sell these or are they likely to be ok?) It currently has Non AC kickpanels installed to let fresh air in. I was hoping to leave these and bypass the stock vacuum door in the passenger kick panel if possible. Thanks again for the help, it'd be really great to get this working because without it the car is an absolute sauna on anything more than mild days. |
#9
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I used Classic Auto Air for the 442, redid the OE setup, using a sanden, condenser upgrade, hose upgrade, and had them rebuild/calibrate my POA for 134. All said and done, it cost more than if I would have done a VA. One thing I would have liked to do away with is the vacuum operation from the factory, they leave a lot to be desired. Nothing more frustrating than spending that coin and getting it together just to find blend doors don't operate correctly, or at all.
True you lose the fresh air door, but when you are cranking the AC, you usually have the OE setup on recirculation anyway. If you want, you can just crack the window a hair for fresh air. The VA or other aftermarket setups have a much better air flow capacity, you will never get that out of the OE system. You can try to upgrade the fan but have seen mixed results doing so. True the brackets are cheesy, or at least they were on the A body. But with a little engineering, you can easily get past that. Having the evap box out of the engine compartment is a bonus, especially if you run headers. But, obviously, you lose the OE look. It really cleans up the firewall though. If you can, do a smoothy plate, would clean it up even more. It's a toss up to some degree, and depends on what you want. If you shop it, you can get the complete SureFit kit for about $1300. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#10
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Red, yes, the brackets you linked are for the factory compressor, not the 508.
I forget the name, but there IS an aluminum compressor that fits the factory brackets. A friend had one installed a few years ago, and it has worked well for him. But I like the extra room that the 508 offers.
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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'. '67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home |
#11
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I'm swaying towards the vintage air kit for those reasons. I hate the idea of rebuilding the stock system and then the vacuum tubes breaking or not working properly.
At the moment I have non AC kickpanels fitted to get some air flow. I imagine I can keep the driver's side non AC kickpanel for fresh air even if I can't keep the passenger side one due to the VA evap tubes. |
#12
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To rebuild stock AC or convert to vintage air? Reply
I am also struggling with the "rebuild the stock AC system" or change it to a VA conversion and was disappointed to see here from others that it would never blow more air. I've had my 1970 Formula 400 since August of 1971, and the AC system never really blew air well. It is in the middle of a restoration, and while I wanted to keep a stock look inside and out, here's the opportunity to make it work better. Can anyone pinpoint why this system has it's deficiencies? I've seen the "engine" side of this AC system in other GM cars and it works great. So is it the ducting (my lower dash ducts pretty much fell apart in a few years; terrible plastic!), poor blower capacity (upgrades was mentioned, but where do you find a higher capacity blower unit?) or is it the vacuum controls/lines? I'd appreciate any feedback or recommendations, but in the end I'll spend the $$ to rehab the system components and then see if some tweaking will make it better.
Thanks to all! |
#13
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Benny Sanchez own Factory Auto Air and rebuilt most of my original system. He used to work for one of the big companies and does it on his own now. Im very happy and saved a few bucks too vs the big guys.
Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk |
#14
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On the Old Air Products website what is the difference between the two A6 style compressors, one that sells for 550 and other for 250? I see them both listed for my 68 GTO.
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#15
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My 67 GTO that came with factory air has white roof and parchment interior. The previous owner had converted it to R134 and it sucked. After replacing every part of the system with NOS parts and having a friend with extensive knowledge in GM systems set it up, the car was always comfortable as long as it was on the highest fan speed and set to recirculate. Even at wholesale prices I had a lot of money in the rebuild including R12 refrigerant. Air temp was usually between 38° to 40° at the vent, but even after trying three different fan motors the air volume was just okay and cabin temp was just at acceptable. We even went back in and sealed every seam thinking we had leaks, but it didn't help.
When I sold the car I was back driving my original black roof, black interior 67 GTO without A/C. This was always my winter time car when I had the AC car, and the first couple weeks of summer cruising was enough to convince me to add aftermarket air. I wanted to be able to return the car to stock with very little work, and the original heater system was in excellent shape so I purchased and installed the Vintage Air Mark IV system. Good lord, 100°+ degree day and within a half mile of hitting the highway I'm turning the fan down to medium. Within a couple of miles I'm turning the temp switch warmer because it is freezing us out. The system is amazing and this is with R134 and no additional upgrades to the system. When I was specking out the system I was talking about going with the larger compressor, larger condenser, and whatever else I could supersize and the tech stopped me and said that the system was well engineered and I would be wasting money upgrading. I took his word about the standard system and he was correct - the system is perfect. This is now the beginning of the third summer with the system and it is still freezing us out. I weighed the complete Mark IV system including the inside unit, hoses, compressor, mounting bracket, and Freon and it weighed a little under 55 pounds for everything. The old A6 cast iron compressor by itself isn't much under that. The little compressor doesn't make much impact on power or fuel economy either. One additional thing. On the factory rebuild I purchased a new A6 compressor and the front seal lasted a year before starting to leak. Replaced the old carbon seal with the new double lip seal and it was leak free 5 years later - so definitely the way to go for stock systems.
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Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress. Last edited by lust4speed; 06-26-2019 at 02:44 AM. |
#16
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How do the aftermarket systems like VA interface with the OEM evaporator/heater box on the firewall ... does that all stay the same appearance on the outside?
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#17
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No, it's all contained in the unit under the dash, and a block off plate gets installed where the original evap was.
Or you can do a smoothie plate like I did, can see the results in my build thread. Difference in price on the compressors is one's a refurb, other is a new unit. EDIT: If you want an idea of what the process is and general look, you can check out the installation instructions on the VA website. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#18
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IF you are trying to use your stock 1975 AC system, make sure you can get a new or rebuilt VIR unit. GM only used the VIR, ( valve in receiver system) for two years so they are hard and usually expensive to get.
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#19
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I went with an original system on my wife’s 79 TA and she won’t even consider driving it in the summer, it’s more like a cool breeze than AC.
Same shop installed vintage air in my 72 and the airflow and temperatures seem much better- although to be fair I haven’t driven the car yet. I think the price is about the same either way you go. |
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