[unruhjonny]

I was wondering if anyone knew if the first design trunk bird (non-T/A; w/o spoiler), like the 1976-1981 design after them, were sold by GM as a stick-on only deal?

1st design
Part# 8704055


2nd & 3rd design
Part# 9633285 (2nd) & 20193825 (3rd)


I see in my MPC's where the initial 1976-1981 bird went from a bolt on deal (9633285), to being superseded by a stick on part (20193825), but I'm wondering if GM did the same thing with the first design part, because of this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-CLASSIC-NO...9f4506&vxp=mtr

I bought a pair of these (the seller said that I was buying the last of them at the time), and was wondering if anyone here has the short scoop on if these might be real GM badges, or if they're recent knock offs that never were fully produced;
IIRC the repop early trunk bird has been available for some time, and from my first hand experience with them, I'd rather buy used than waste money on another repop just to have it fade and look like it's fourty years old over a couple summers...

Thoughts, or opinions would be greatly appreciated - especially since I often feel like I was born a couple decades too late to enjoy these cars from their heydays...

[Formulabruce]

I have Seen them on the side panel behind door as stick on, which seemed smaller. People try to sell the B pillar ones as trunk ones too. Dealers did have stick on ones in the parts room, well we had a few circa 78-81. NO "early birds" ever had stick on factory birds. 3M wasnt up to being that "sticky" yet

[SD73]

Parts search shows it as:

EMBLEM, COMPT. LID (FIREBIRD) 1976-80

[unruhjonny]

Thanks guys for chiming in;
Just to clarify, these are full sized, and exactly like the early bolt on part...

if you were to open the ebay link you would see that the seller says that they are:

2 3/4" X 2 1/2"

So that's about double the size of the 1972-1973 fender birds, or 1976-1978 sail panel birds...

..and I think that seller is asking too much right now considering that we don't know where these are from, or how old they are.

[Formulabruce]

They are not for an early bird, in 1979 I ordered and installed a correct one, with studs, on a '73 that had backed into our plow truck at the garage. ( upper lift "A arm" on a fisher plow took out the trunk lid and that emblem). Good thing the plow was off in the weeds and it was summer!
All that said, if its the same exact looking part, I would put one on an early car now as I really do not like holes in the paint. I did this , in fact on my side fender birds on my car, they are "3M installs"

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

They are not for an early bird, in 1979 I ordered and installed a correct one, with studs, on a '73 that had backed into our plow truck at the garage. ( upper lift "A arm" on a fisher plow took out the trunk lid and that emblem). Good thing the plow was off in the weeds and it was summer!
All that said, if its the same exact looking part, I would put one on an early car now as I really do not like holes in the paint. I did this , in fact on my side fender birds on my car, they are "3M installs"

I see a slight contradiction in your comment;

I am not asking if this part is correct, as it IS a 1970-1975 trunk emblem/bird (please look at the ebay link, and compare against version #2/3 pictured in post #1);

I am asking if anyone is aware (looking for facts here) if GM ever made a run of these without the stud.

I have never heard of a reproduction of this part being available which was stick-on only ~ So I am trying to figure out if these are a first run repop which never made it to market, or a short run service replacement GM part.

I hope that clears this up.

BTW, I bought mine for $25/ea, where as the seller is listing that one for $79 - which, IMHO, unless it is somehow verified as a legit GM part, is a bit steep.

I spoke with the seller a bit, and although I can't find one of the messages I know I read (I must have deleted it), I still had this one;

There are no studs and the doubleface tape is GM. If it is a version that DID have studs when it came out of the casting and they were subsequently broken off to accomodate the tape, I don't know. This was actually a pretty common practice for the Big 3. I can think of quite a few emblems that started off with studs and on later models were used as stick-on emblems. Not really crazy about the idea of ripping off perfectly good tape to find out, though! i kbnow what you mean about detail...one version has rounded off wing points and a flat insert. The ones i have are the pointy winged, more 3D type.
Hope this helps!
Tina

I was also told that these were bought in a bulk purchase with other emblems - which is how she came to posesss them ~ without boxes.

[Formulabruce]

Yes they did make them without the stud, in the late 80's I saw one in GM packaging. They were in bags, not boxes. paper sided bag deal.. I took one out in the bag and compared it to a 81 base bird and it was same size.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Yes they did make them without the stud, in the late 80's I saw one in GM packaging. They were in bags, not boxes. paper sided bag deal.. I took one out in the bag and compared it to a 81 base bird and it was same size.

oh?

Mine were shipped (as she supposedly recieved them) in little bags plastic;
She said that one which she recieved was not bagged, and slightly scuffed up;
I bought a number of years ago a repop, and although this is clearly the same design, it does appear to be a smidgeon different ~ as in the lucite(?) looks different, and appears to be applied different than the repop I bought...

I have three MPC's;
Two are Firebird specific:
1) 1967-1975 (printed at the onset of the 1975 model year)
2) 1967-1976 (printed later iirc)
And my third is the giant "Pontiac" one which covers all Pontiacs from something like 1977-1981

So then if you're correct, and if I've understood you, these are likely service replacement GM birds made for the early second gen cars, but lacking hte conventional mounting (and alighnment) stud(s) - and done in the stick on style akin to the "3rd" design that I showed in my initial post...

Next question:

Does anyone have an MPC for the 1967-1976 Firebirds which lists this latter stick on service replacement trunk bird?

This might have made me a very happy boy
(because the real GM stuff has seemed thus far to be FAR superior in quality to the repops)

I know that about a decade ago I bought some of the last NOS red PMD centercap inserts left in the GM-Canada's inventory*, and they do appear much darker than the repops - I don't doubt that the colour says better than the repops as well...

* = IIRC at the time there were nine or ten left;
I told my cousin about this, and he and I each ordered four...

[Formulabruce]

The early ones were called a "package",( 8704055) later ones were not called a "package"

[unruhjonny]

The following photo's can be clicked on to open full sized (I did this rather than make the full sized photo appear here)...

This is why I initially called it a 1970-1975 emblem (taken from my "1967-1975" MPC, printed November 1974; I use this one the most, as it has the earlier part numbers);



Then to further confuse things, this is from my "1967-1976" MPC (printed December 1975):



I believe that by reading between the lines of these two MPC's, you can deduce that the early 1975 model year cars used the early badge, eve3n though the "official" 1975MY badge was the second design... But I digress this point doesn't matter too much for the question at hand...

Then there's the last one, taken from my "1977-1981 Pontiac" MPC (which is states "effective August 1985"):



You can see that the 1977+ badge was in fact the same one used for 1976, and was replaced by the stick on part by at least 1985 ~ if not sooner...

So then, if there is a fourth part number for a stick on variant of the first badge - does someone have it (or an MPC to share a picture of)???

[Formulabruce]

The stick on was the 77 and up number as I recall. Keep in mind GM changed manufacture's and the manufacture's changed products IF it met GM guidelines. This happened in production with fasteners, and parts with a "change order" Great example of this is the GM door seal, or body side door seals.
I dont think there is any 4th part number

[unruhjonny]

Ok, so lets update this, I just noticed that I have actually posted four numbers for three parts!

I'll conceded and call the 1975 part as the 2nd design...

Also, I looked up the original auction from which I bought these, and the gal wasn't lying; she no longer lists these - which means I bought the last ones she had, and to further her info, this was from her listing;
ebay NOS trunk birds

THIS GM ORIGINAL BIRD EMBLEM WILL PUT THE COLOR BACK IN YOUR PONTIAC.

CONDITION IS PRETTY GOOD CONSIDERING WHAT THIS FLOCK OF EMBLEMS HAS BEEN THROUGH. YEARS AGO, I BOUGHT A BOX OF THESE AT A SWAP MEET SIGHT UNSEEN. WHEN THEY WERE DELIVERED, I SAW THAT THEY WERE ALL JUMBLED TOGETHER WITHOUT ANY KIND OF WRAP AROUND THEM AT ALL (GASP!). SO, UNFORTUNATELY, ALTHOUGH THIS EMBLEM HAS NEVER BEEN ON A CAR, IT HAS SCRATCHES IN THE PLASTIC ON THE FRONT. MOST SCRATCHES ARE SMALL, AND I HAVE HAD SOME LUCK IN GETTING THE PLASTIC TO LOOK BETTER WITH A LITTLE RUBBING COMPOUND. ALSO, THE BACK TAPE LOOKS ALITTLE BEAT-UP, BUT IT IS FULLY FUNCIONAL.

NOW, HERE'S THE GOOD PART! THE CHROME IS ABOUT 95% (FEW SCRATCHES) AND THE COLOR IS FANTASTIC!! NICE DEEP RED AND BLACK THROUGHOUT THE EMBLEM. AT ARMS' LENGTH, IT LOOKS PRETTY SWEET!

A NOTE ON IDENTIFICATION:

APPARENTLY, TWO VARIATIONS OF THIS BIRD WERE PRODUCED BY PONTIAC. MINE HAS MORE DETAIL AROUND THE EDGES AND POINTIER WINGS THAN THE OTHER VERSION. BOTH VERSIONS ARE STICK-ON. I HAVE SEEN VARIOUS PARTS BOOKS AND IT SEEMS THAT THESE TWO VERSIONS ARE CONSIDERED INTERCHANGEABLE AS SHOWN BY THE PART NUMBERS. BOTH VARIATIONS WERE USED ON FIREBIRD MODELS WITHOUT A SPOILER.

As it stands these are the variants & numbers associated;

• 1st design; with mounting stud mounting & alignment stud: #8704055*
• 1st design; stick on: #???**
• 2nd design; with mounting stud: #1738905*** & #9633285***
• 2nd design; stick on: #20193825***

* = currently reprodiced, lucite quickly hazes, and colour fades
** = possible first run reproduction part; undetermined at this time.
*** = not currently reproduced

If someone has a 1967-1976 Firebird Master Parts catalog circa the late 1980's or early 1990's (around the time they went to microfische), this might solve it for us once and for all...

[SD73]

I hope this helps to get to the bottom of your mystety. This is from the April '83 MPC that covers to '75.

[Lloyd-TX]

From my 12/71 dated MPC, FWIW . . .

[unruhjonny]

uh, oh...

This appears to have taken on a whole new level of complication.

Seeing as both myself and 'SD73' have MPC's from the 1980's which show both design parts being superceded by part number 20193825 (2nd desing, stick-on), I think I am closer to figuring this out...

I'm going to have to do more research, and possibly collecting of some more parts to get to the bottom of it...

[Formulabruce]

I was always under the assumption that the older ones , that came "with" a speed nut, were called a Package, and in a box. I only saw the "non studded" emblems in a bag type packaging.
looks like GM had a manufacturer change, which is part of the issue.

[unruhjonny]

something transpired recently that had me re-dredge this subject up, I think I may have finally found an answer!

It looks like this "first design" 3m taped badge may in fact be a legitimate GM part after all(!!);

Just now I actually came across a couple listings for this badge as a used part with the part number shown, and here's the kicker:
It uses the casting number, not a unique package number!
Maybe this is because the "package" doesn't require a nut?

I think what had long messed me up was how unscrupulous eBay sellers will reuse boxes - notably this one:



I have finally realized that the above picture (from eBay) was one part, in another part's box!!

but more on that in a moment:

"first design" with attaching and alignment stud:
package #8704055
casting #9815275

(the one on the far left)


"first design" with 3M backing only:
package #1738905
casting #1738905

(also refer to the eBay mismatch part above; that is a box for this part!!)





"second design" with attaching stud and 3M backing:
package #9633285
casting #??




"second design" with 3M backing only:
package #20193825
casting #(probably the same as the package number)

(also refer to the eBay mismatch part above; that part, not the box, is for this number!)





It looks like parts were issued something like this:

First: 'first design' with studs

It's absolutely air-tight that the badge originally installed on 70-74 Firebirds was this one.



Second: 'second design' with stud

It looks like this was introduced either for, or during the 1975 model year, as all leads point to a change for this year.
I do not recall ever coming across a spoilerless pre-1977 Firebird that did not have a hole drilled for a trunk badge.


Third: 'first design' with 3M backing

It looks like the second design may have been used starting in 1975, then for a period, the service replacement for 1970(?) through 1976 cars which was called for was the 'first design' albeit a taped on version.



Fourth: 'second design' with 3M backing



It seems clear to me, that sometime around maybe as early as 1977 that the trunk birds were always taped on.
Most sources cite this emblem for everything, and it's clear that this was the last second gen Firebird trunk bird in production - it was available at dealerships well into the 1990's.


The following image shows the third release ('first design' w/3M) being superceded with the fourth one ('second design' w/3M):



The only confusing part seems to be exactly when the third one was introduced because it appears as though most sources show the first one being replaced with the second or fourth, except for the one source that clearly shows the third replacing the second... then there's the problem of eBay sellers trying to get extra money because they show a part with a GM box.

The first part issued ('first design' with attaching and alignment studs) part is the only one (currently to my knowledge) being reproduced;
It appears from reading loder posts here that the first run of them had big problems holding their colour, but the colour problem seems to be resolved now.
My experience with these reproduction badges is that the clear (epoxy?) coating rapidly fogs and checks which makes the badge look decades old when it may in fact only be five years old.

I hope this time consuming post might be of help to someone here, because unless to me at least, this seems to solve a little mystery

[unruhjonny]

well poop.

I just came across more information which seems to undermine some of my last post.

It looks like this 3M only "first design" badge is now being reproduced;
It looks like it may be marketed for 76-81 cars without holes in their trunk.

For the time being I'd wager the plastic backing on the 3M adhesive would be one of the best ways to ID a new versus new-old-stock part;
The new-old-stock ones I have seen all used either a light blue, or solid orange plastic sticker cover, where as the new ones use a sticker cover which is orange, but has 3M printing on it.

1738905 V1 (note the outline/shape)


1738905 V2 (note the outline/shape)


1738905 V1 rear blue plastic


20193825 V2 rear plastic (far right)


1738905 V1 repop rear plastic

[unruhjonny]

Since I have revisited this subject for personal reasons, I am going to give this discussion a small bump, with more information in the hopes that someone in the future might benefit from this.

Recap;
There are two distinct varieties of second generation trunk "bird" emblems;
This emblem was used on all 1970-1981 Firebirds that left the factory without a spoiler.

The initial design used on 1970 model year cars is what I call a "first design";
The 'first design' is a contoured chrome plated backing with black paint in the centre, translucent red paint on the tips of the wings and tail, and the "breath" of the bird - this is all covered entirely by some sort of clear epoxy.

The final design which was used on 1981 model year cars is what I call a "second design";
The 'second design' is a flat backed, and bordered chrome badge, with a plastic inlay that has the entirety of the design incorporated into it.

I have observed, and over the course of the (slightly more than) two year old discussion nailed down that there were at least four distinct varieties of the two styles;
I have come to realize that there are actually five variants in total of the two designs;
The casting numbers are not the part number, the number of the completed part was printed on the box, or included with the packaging (but sometimes entirely absent.

1) First design; has mounting stud, and alignment stud
Package #8704055
Casting #9815275 (12183 under this number; (first line)VITROLUX EMBLEM (second line) THE D L AULD CO. to the right of numbers; ADCS in rectangle to the right of this)

2) First design; no mounting studs - 3m backed
Package #1738905
Casting #1738905 (13147 2 above casting number; VITROLUX EMBLEM D L AULD CO. above other number)

3) Second design; has mounting stud, and alignment stud
Package #????
Casting #9815275 (A12641 above alignment stud with ABCD in circle on right wing - when viewed from rear)

4) Second design; has mounting stud, but no alignment stud
Package #9633285
Casting #1700898 (12763-1 above and to the left of the part number; A12763 above and to the right of the part number)

5) Second design; no mounting stud - 3m backed
Package #20193825
Casting #1738905 (12825-1 under casting number)

Please be aware, people have either intentionally, or unintentionally mismatched GM boxes with these badges.

[Elkykid]

It's absolutely ironic you brought up bird emblem subject this week as my original bird emblem is sitting on the kitchen counter. The emblem has an alignment peg and a second longer peg that accepts a speed nut. The only reason I brought it in the kitchen was to reference one that sold on ebay Tuesday morning out of Yorba Linda CA. I bid $49 ibut it sold for $79 I believe.