[BR57]

This car is for sale about 2 hours away near Lake Erie. Just wondering what members think about it. Is it worth the drive to see? What about price? I have always had A bodies so any advice is appreciated. Sales ad leaves a bit to be desired.

http://barrie.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehic...QAdIdZ26084940

[north]

Assuming it is a real 390 horse 4spd car (rare as hell) most of these Canadian 2+2 cars had small block 2 bbl engines (You can get buildsheet info from GM Canada) here are some:

Pluses:
rare car
compared to true (American Built) B Pontiacs in 69 which had no four speed options or consoles etc it is unique
Nice powertrain (my friend had same setup in a 69 Impala SS)
Interiors easy to restore since basically a Pontiac dash with Impala seats, steering and panels

Minuses:
Most of these Canadian cars have major Calcium Cancer
Funny looking with stock tires since they used Chevy chassis (narrow track)
If car needs panels and trim you can have royal pain since car had different (119") wheelbase from true Pontiac full size cars so 1/4's etc are different than American Pontiacs
Even if nice and rare these cars have very limited following, American B cars have very low value and these cars (with small blocks) are nearly give aways.

If it is a clean no rust car in need of freshening I would think it should pull $10k at best (especially in softening market and fall duldrums)

Sure would attract a crowd at the POCI meet.

[BR57]

It looks 69 is your year, North. So on the motor for the 390 HP Chevy 427, what code would be in the VIN? There is a running 69 Bonneville Convertible 428 -360 HP on eBay right now with new paint and interior with a BIN of $8900. I was thinking it would be comparable for price so that is in line with your estimate North.

You have to admit that there is a lot of folk lore around these 2+2 cars here in Canada. and I have never seen a big block 427 one in the flesh so maybe it is worth a drive to see on a nice fall weekend and make an assessment.

[CDN2PLS2]

The VIN is 76837 for 2+2. No code for engine size in vin. Total of Ten,but no breakdown between hardtops+ convertibles.

[BR57]

Originally Posted by CDN2PLS2

Total of Ten,but no breakdown between hardtops+ convertibles.

So this could be even a smaller number maybe 1 of 6 ever made. It's getting more interesting.

[north]

A sign of it being a real 2+2 is the lack of the body side molding being absent, it was the only full size poncho American or canadian to not have them.

Have a look at http://memturbo.com/pontiac/

There is a scan of the 69 Canadian brochure in there

To give you a sense of the value of 69 Fullsize cars have a look at the Bonneville vert I just bought on eBay (1601161800572) car some needs paint work and detailing but is a rustfree numbers match unmolested car with a very nice original leather interior, full load brougham package car with a 428-360 for $4,300.

Certainly a big block 2+2 is a more interesting car than a Bonneville but the counter effect is that being a Canadian car it has a limited following. Probably a better fan base in the chevy crowd.

[CDN2PLS2]

I know of Three out of the Ten,but not a convertible yet.

[BR57]

Originally Posted by CDN2PLS2

I know of Three out of the Ten,but not a convertible yet.

It's not far for you CDN2PLS2, are you interesting in driving down to have a look see? Maybe post some good photos so we can see what it is all about? Is your car a Big Block car?

[BR57]

Originally Posted by north

Certainly a big block 2+2 is a more interesting car than a Bonneville but the counter effect is that being a Canadian car it has a limited following. Probably a better fan base in the chevy crowd.

Why is this this the case?

[north]

BR 57, Which part of my comment are you questioning?

Clearly a 2+2 BB is a more interesting car than one of a 100,000 Bonnevilles but 90+% of guys into Pontiacs do not even know that Canadian pochos exist and there is a certain stigma (somewhat legitimate) that they are not "real" ponchos.

I seem to remember a 427 4spd vert for sale in Saskatchewan last year, or more acurately what was left of it in a field.

[BR57]

Just wondering why car would appeal to Chevy Crowd, that's all. Canadians know they exist. How is an Olds powered Trans Am any more or less a Pontiac?

I'd agree a Bonneville is pretty common in the US but somehow our neighbour got one here back in the day and I loved it as a 12 year old, 4dr HT Gold with Brown vinyl roof, wire wheels and duals I recall. That car throbbed!

[Jerry H.]

Personally I think it would appeal more to the Chevy crowd because of the drivetrain. I'm a Pontiac man to the bone, but I have no real interest in the Canadian Pontiacs because of the half breed character of these cars. No doubt this car is very rare, but it would seem this is another case that rare doesn't mean more $$$$. JMHO.

[BR57]

Originally Posted by Jerry H.

Personally I think it would appeal more to the Chevy crowd because of the drivetrain. I'm a Pontiac man to the bone, but I have no real interest in the Canadian Pontiacs because of the half breed character of these cars. No doubt this car is very rare, but it would seem this is another case that rare doesn't mean more $$$$. JMHO.

Thanks for the HO, so basically this car is not that desireable because it has a Big Block Chevy 427 and he is using that as his selling point. In the end it is just a neglected "half breed" car that isn't worth all that much. North suggested $10,000 max, sounds like that might even be too high?

[BR57]

Attached 1978 letter from GM Canada say 12 were made. You'll most likely need to enlarge or magnify to read it.

[north]

An Olds powered Trans Am is less of a Pontiac because it used to be called Pontiac motor division (reflected in the values by the way), same with a Ventura II or any new Pontiac. Back then Pontiac was a car company engineering and designing cars and there engines, now it is just a brand manager (not a very good one at that if you look at the sales trend over the last 30 years).

The reality is that the vast majority of Pontiac fans want a Pontiac with a Pontiac engine and Pontiac body.

Canadian Pontiacs were half breed cars designed for the lower income reality of Canada, it was felt that there was a market for cars priced between chevy and US Pontiacs. So they took chevy cars and threw on some Pontiac body panels (modified to fit the smaller chevy chassis as required) and in some cases the dashpad. For better or worse the rest of the car; powertrain, suspension, everything was pure chevy.

One of the perception problems with these cars is the reputation and image of the base models, the cheapest full size poncho you could get (Catalina) in the 60's in the US had a 290HP 400cid engine, the Canadian cars had 100 odd horse stovebolts with a 2speed as the only available automatic. These cars were awful, my friend had a 66 parisienne with six/powerglide. Dangerously underpowered and junky all over the road suspension with bicycle tires. Made a Catalina feel and look like an BMW by comparison.

That being said, like I mentioned earlier a 69 2+2 (with that powertain) is actually a more interesting car than anyother fullsize 69 Pontiac. Like full size chevrolets they were much worse than a pontiac in base form but potentially a better car with the right boxes ticked.

Neat and rare car but be aware if you had to sell it later it won't sell like a Judge. Selling classic cars in Canada is not easy, thanks to crushing taxes the middle class in Canada does not have anywhere near the disposable income of americans.

[BR57]

Originally Posted by north

Canadian Pontiacs were half breed cars designed for the lower income reality of Canada, it was felt that there was a market for cars priced between chevy and US Pontiacs. So they took chevy cars and threw on some Pontiac body panels (modified to fit the smaller chevy chassis as required) and in some cases the dashpad. For better or worse the rest of the car; powertrain, suspension, everything was pure chevy.

Selling classic cars in Canada is not easy, thanks to crushing taxes the middle class in Canada does not have anywhere near the disposable income of americans.

Lots of interesting information in this post that I was not aware of. I was a Commerce major with Canadian History electives at the U of T and I find your socio-economic and GM Canada marketing history information fascinating. I would love to read up more on this topic. Would you be kind enough to cite your sources for me?

[Hitman]

I saw one in smoke signals some time ago but I thought is was a halfassed attempt at a clone. It had a 350 if I remember right. That would screw with some heads a BB427 in a Pontiac. That motor would get those chevy nuts fired up though. Just think of the comments.

[north]

BR,

Canadian per capita after tax income was 48% of US in last year available (2004 I think) at the time I read about it, source was US commerce department and stats Canada. Also I have read many marketing reports by GM and others on the average spending on automobiles between Canadians and Americans. Go for a drive across the border and this is evident immediately, just look at the cars around you.

The origins of the Canadian chevy based Pontiacs has been covered in several books about GM and GM of Canada in particular. In the 30's American car companies agreed to a deal with the Canadian government that a percentage of the cars they would sell in Canada would be built here. Around that time a marketing study was done that showed that the gap between Chevrolet and Pontiac was perceived as too wide in the Canadian market and that lower priced "one step up" cars would sell well. Pontiac did not want to sell cars in the US that would undermine its brand value so a comprimise was struck resulting in chevy based cars being built in Canada for sale in Canada (this also led to sales in the British common market since being built in Canada eliminated tarrifs imposed on non member countries like the US). This was very fruitful and Pontiac sales in Canada were usually above market penatration in the US.

In terms of my political views, the basis of the sarcasm in your message I assume, Maybe U of T provided you with a much too Toronto centric view of Canada and the World. I only finished high school but have built a business with over 200 employees so I feel free to express my point of view without concern about what someone who was spending my taxes at university while I was working and paying them decides to act condesending.

Back on subject, I believe my opinions about that car in particular are valid and informed:
A nice and rare car but there are some important limitations about it's following and therefore potential resale value for you to consider, firstly late 60's big Pontiacs in general have tiny followings and very low values and furthermore Canadian Pontiacs in particular are not on the radar screen of even those few Pontiac collectors (myself included).

You can view this as a problem or an opportunity, For not much $$ you can get a very rare and powerful and neat car in exchange for it potentially being a hard to sell and limited value car. If you like it go for it and forget the personal opinions of everyone else but yourself, it is your money after all.

[BR57]

Originally Posted by north

BR,

In terms of my political views, the basis of the sarcasm in your message I assume, Maybe U of T provided you with a much too Toronto centric view of Canada and the World. I only finished high school but have built a business with over 200 employees so I feel free to express my point of view without concern about what someone who was spending my taxes at university while I was working and paying them decides to act condesending.

Just asking for information. I am new to the hobby and you seem very knowledgeable. I would really like to get those books you refer to or at least read the pertinent parts. If you by chance remember the titles please pass them on. Very unfortunate that you chose to react this way to my novice questions.

[GPCONV]

Boy... I don't care what kind of socio-economic problems created these cars, I think you Canadiens have some nice rides up there, and there's tons of repop Chevy stuff you can get cheap for the motors. Don't get me wrong Ponchos are my heart beat but the "North of the border" cars can be very cool!
She's real fine...http://cgi.ebay.ca/Pontiac-SAFARI-40...QQcmdZViewItem