[The Boss]

Originally Posted by The Champ

And GM stock went up 3.55% yesterday after June auto sales were reported.

Isn't that how all of this started? Long term decisions driven by short term stock gains?

[71SportRagtop]

I could care less what GM's stock is valued at today. We all know that the market has highs and lows.

What I care about is what my hard earned dollar gets me. I've spent enough of my hard earned dollars on GM products and found them to be of piss poor quality. I got stung twice on GM cars and learned my lesson.

Shame on GM for producing a crap product for YEARS and not giving a rat's ass about their customer base. And please don't hand me your Kool Aid drinking line of crap that they care. This garbage company put out a faulty product that is now killing people. AND THEY KNEW IT WAS FAULTY. Get that straight GM homers.

They've lost market share and some of it will NEVER come back. A perfect example is my wife and I, my parents, my sister and her husband. We've all been stung by GM in the past and are happy to say they will never receive another penny of our money ever again.

[klunker]

if any out there think GM stock is a great thing I'll get you hooked up with my Dad. He has some of the "Original" GM stock that is now worthless. I'm Sure he'd love to sell it.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 71SportRagtop

What I care about is what my hard earned dollar gets me. I've spent enough of my hard earned dollars on GM products and found them to be of piss poor quality. I got stung twice on GM cars and learned my lesson.

I can't speak to your personal situation, but my experience is 180 degrees out from what you have experienced.

Shame on GM for producing a crap product for YEARS and not giving a rat's ass about their customer base. And please don't hand me your Kool Aid drinking line of crap that they care. This garbage company put out a faulty product that is now killing people. AND THEY KNEW IT WAS FAULTY. Get that straight GM homers

Please check out the Ford Pinto... Started production in 1971 and they failed to recall the exloding Pinto until 1978.

According to a 1977 Mother Jones article by Mark Dowie, Ford allegedly was aware of the design flaw, refused to pay for a redesign, and decided it would be cheaper to pay off possible lawsuits. The magazine obtained a cost-benefit analysis that it said Ford had used to compare the cost of repairs (Ford estimated the cost to be $11 per car per year) against the cost of settlements for deaths, injuries, and vehicle burnouts . The document became known as the Ford Pinto Memo.

In 1978, Ford initiated a recall providing a plastic protective shield to be dealer-installed between the fuel tank and the differential bolts, another to deflect contact with the right-rear shock absorber, and a new fuel-tank filler neck that extended deeper into the tank and was more resistant to breaking off in a rear-end collision.

Not so lily white...

Originally Posted by 71SportRagtop

They've lost market share and some of it will NEVER come back. A perfect example is my wife and I, my parents, my sister and her husband. We've all been stung by GM in the past and are happy to say they will never receive another penny of our money ever again.

You are correct. GM's market share is down .3% this year, even though their total sales are up.

How do you explain Ford's market share being down .9% (3 times GM's loss) this year and their overall sales being down for 2014.

One would think that with all the negative media reports out there that Ford would be doing better, not worse.

Chrysler/Fiat is eating Ford's lunch...

[Alvin]

Standard Operating Procedure: Deflection & Change of Narrative such as
"It's all FORD's Fault!" & "Chrysler is awesome!"

[The Champ]

Alvin

Chrysler sucks balls - but they are eating Ford's lunch. I've never owned a Chrysler product and most likely never will.

Just because the facts are out there and don't correlate to whatever position you want to espouse, doesn't mean that the facts are wrong.

71SportRagtop didn't want to pay attention to the stock prices - "I could care less what GM's stock is valued at today. We all know that the market has highs and lows."

Yes, stock prices do go up and down - but one needs to look at the trends.

Yesterday GM stock closed at $37.74. On July 5th 2013 it closed at 34.67. GM stock is up over $3.00 per share.

At this time one would expect the competition to be eating GM's lunch and enjoying a surge in their own stock pricing with all the media driven hoopla about the recalls.

But...

Toyota - Yesterday $121.73 - A year ago $125.97 - Down nearly $4.00 per share.

Ford - Yesterday $17.32 - A year ago $16.70 - Up $.62.

Honda - Yesterday $35.00 - A year ago $38.34 - Down over $3.00 per share.

GM's increase of 3.55% the other day was after June sales figures were released. Kelly Blue Book had predicted GM's sales to be down by nearly 4% - yet they actually increased sales.

GM is doing the smart thing right now by recalling anything that could potentially be a problem.

By doing so - the majority of the public sees them as being proactive and concerned about safety and quality. When other companies end up making the same type of recall - the consumer sees that GM forced brand X into recalling their vehicles for the same problems - instead of doing it voluntarily like GM did.

Look back at history for Toyota during the drive by wire recalls of 2009/10:

On July 6th 2009 Toyota closed at 75.61. A year later they closed at $68.26. Toyota fought the recalls and took no ownership of the problem and their stock dropped 10% over a year - compared to GM stock increasing by 10%.

[Formulabruce]

Just to clarify a thing here
1. GMC >> General Motors Corporation stock IS now in fact Worthless, as that Corporation does NOT now exist.
2. GMC >> General Motors COMPANY is Different and the stock has some value and is traded, when GM hasn't "Locked trading" while we release this lil memo..about recalls.
General Motors Company now has recalls for all 5 General Motors "Corporation" original brands.
3. The Pontiac G2 ( made and marketed in Mexico) Failed side impact testing, yet was introduced in the States as the Chevy Spark...
4. In China, a company known as "Chery" Copied the "Chevy" Spark to the extent that almost ALL parts are interchangeable. GM "Company" has a law suit, for what its worth, in China now...
Just some interesting facts

[71SportRagtop]

You are right I don't pay attention to stock prices. Stock prices have NOTHING to do with how piss poor my experience was with my GM vehicles.

My wife and I walked into a Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealership in late 1998 with the plans on purchasing her a GMC Jimmy or an S-10 Blazer because we were both GM loyal. While looking at new Jimmy's a 98 Gran Prix GTP caught my wife's eye. On a whim she took it for a test drive because she liked the way it looked. Long story short she went with the GTP over an S-10 Blazer because she liked the power of the supercharged motor and I had a practically new 97 Tahoe. We were engaged at the time and figured once we were married, we only needed one 4WD vehicle.

That Gran Prix was a TOTAL turd. Before it hit 50,000 miles we replaced the water pump, the alternator, a hub bearing, a wiper transmission unit, and the dreaded GM intake manifold gaskets. So while I was making payments of just over $300.00 per month on this "quality" GM car, I was also dropping $4-$500.00 on a regular basis on non routine maintenance. What a POS. I also have many times documented my transmission and intake gasket issues with my 97 Tahoe. Long story short the trans on my Tahoe took a crap at 50,000 miles. So again while I'm making payments on my quality GM vehicle I'm dropping $3K on a transmission and another $700.00 to have my intake manifold gaskets replaced because they were leaking at 50,000 miles and the truck was consuming anti freeze.

Bottom line is this. When we were newly married with a new mortgage, a mortgage on our vacation home, and 2 car payments, our GM vehicles hurt us financially because we couldn't keep them out of the shop. We struggled to build up our savings because we kept digging into our bank account to pay for major repairs to vehicles we were still paying for. WTF is that?? GM quality.....my ass. As a matter of fact we pushed back starting a family because of the financial burdens placed on us by our sh!tty GM vehicles and you want me to give a rats ass about stock values??

In contrast, we finally got rid of that turd of a Gran Prix and bought my wife a Honda. Her Honda lasted for 10 years and 100,000 miles and needed NOTHING more than tires, brakes, and oil changes. NOTHING else. We paid it off in 4 years and had 6 years of trouble and payment free driving. I NEVER had that experience with my GM vehicles.

Just to show that it's not just me, my parents had similar issues with my mom's 2000 Malibu, my dad's 2000 S-10 Blazer and my sister's Chevy Trailblazer. The Trailblazer specifically was a total POS. My sister had serious issues with that turd. Finally our entire family switched to foreign cars and we all sleep like babies. My wife drives a Subaru WRX, I drive a Toyota 4 Runner, my sister and her husband both drive Infiniti's, my mom drives a Lexus. My dad is the only domestic car owner, he drives a 2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, but he will NEVER own a GM vehicle again.

As I said these are MY personal experiences. I understand that there are people out there who have had positive experiences with GM products and that's fine. But as the old saying goes I'm not going to let you piss down my back and tell me it's raining. It took me years to dig out of the financial hole my GM vehicles put me in. We've rebounded nicely. We have a new home, we're almost done with the mortgage on our vacation home, and we own both of our current cars. We also have much better jobs with much better income than we had 15-18 years ago but we haven't forgotten how difficult things were in the past due to our crappy GM vehicles. I don't care how many proactive recalls GM performs, I won't ever give them a penny of my money again.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

2. GMC >> General Motors COMPANY is Different and the stock has some value and is traded, when GM hasn't "Locked trading" while we release this lil memo..about recalls.

Clarification...

There is no GMC stock symbol. The only stock symbol for GM is "GM". GM did halt trading of their stock for 30 minutes on Monday, but resumed trading at 3:00 PM the same day and the stock closed down $.32 for the day. Anyone that wanted to sell their stock on Monday could have.

After a day to evalute the additonal recalls and look at June sales data, the stock closed at $37.59 - up $1.29 or 3.55% for the day. On Thursday the stock closed at $37.74.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 71SportRagtop

That Gran Prix was a TOTAL turd. Before it hit 50,000 miles we replaced the water pump, the alternator, a hub bearing, a wiper transmission unit, and the dreaded GM intake manifold gaskets.

I also bought my wife a 1998 GP. Put 156,000 miles on it before selling it to my best friend for his daughter. In 156,000 miles it did have one hub bearing replaced (under warranty), a starter at 125,000 miles and the battery at 140,000 miles.

But went to my friend with the original water pump, alternator, wiper transimission unit and intake manifold gaskets.

In contrast, we finally got rid of that turd of a Gran Prix and bought my wife a Honda. Her Honda lasted for 10 years and 100,000 miles and needed NOTHING more than tires, brakes, and oil changes. NOTHING else. We paid it off in 4 years and had 6 years of trouble and payment free driving. I NEVER had that experience with my GM vehicles.

I replaced the Grand Prix with a Pontiac Torrent which we are still driving. Because we only took out a 3 year note on the Grand Prix and owned it free and clear with no real repair costs for 5 years, we were able to pay cash for our Torrent (we continued to make the payments to ourselves during the last 5 years of ownership).

Our Torrent had it's first non normal maintenance repair last summer at just over 100,000 miles. $301.00 AC repair.

my dad's 2000 S-10 Blazer

I had a new 2000 GMC Jimmy. Absolutely nothing but normal maintenance in the three years I had it.

I can't explain why you had such terrible luck with GM products. But you are the exception, not the rule.

GM makes some of the best quality vehicles on the road today. That's why GM sales are as strong as they are.

Honda appears to be having major problems getting people to buy their cars right now. Their cars in the last several years are recognized as being well made (in contrast to what they were when first imported) Their market share was down .6% last month and sales were down 5.8%. Their stock is down $3.34 per share since last summer.

You can call me a "GM HOMER" if you want. But when I have decades of extremely good luck with a product, I stick with them.

[64CatalinaVentura]

The stories here reflect one of the greatest issues GM has faced: Inconsistent build quality. It is highly possible that two people owning the same model car will have two different experiences because of quality.

I owned a 2001 Oldsmobile Aurora 3.5 which I bought used and sold with 99k miles (I'm really an Oldsmobile guy and am currently the Vice President of the local chapter of the OCA). My Aurora was a total nightmare! I had the steering shaft replaced, the transmission needed a new input turbine (speed) sensor which cost $1544 (and it was never fully resolved), the car had highway vibration (a known problem with full size G and H body GM cars from 2000-2004)that no dealer could figure out. The sunroof leaked and fell out of adjustment every few months. I had endless electrical issues with the car: flaky automatic climate control, strange warning messages (such as an oil pressure sensor that always read 131+ psi), strange noises from the dash, and a self leveling suspension that only worked when it wanted to. Perhaps the worst was the unstoppable trunk leak. After a rain storm, or washing the car, the entire spare tire well would fill with water. After a few years I have up and drilled a few holes in the bottom of the tire well to drain the water.

The guy down the street from me had the exact same car except his was gold (mine was silver) and his was a 2002. He had far fewer problems (although his power window motors kept dying).

By comparison, my 1993 Bonneville was a great car and the other half's 98 Sunfire (which was bought new) wasn't traded in until 173k miles...and that was on a Chevy Sonic turbo sedan. Truth is there are many horror stories for all American (an many imported) cars, especially those more than a few years old when the automakers finally started to turn the quality corner.

As for me, I drive a Mercury Grand Marquis.

[pontiacs4ever1971]

We have experienced the same in the ag world. These companys farm so much work out that they have no control of the parts that come in from the foreign country's that are made so cheaply. All of our warranty issues are from outside vendors. We have to bring the work back in house to solve the issues. You get what you pay for. Companys are always trying to save big $$$ for there CEOs big bonus.

[KS circutguy]

These companys farm so much work out that they have no control of the parts that come in from the foreign country's that are made so cheaply.

Bull****,the company specs the parts being made!
If not up to standards they should get another vender - manufacture.

[zephyrracer]

And lets add that taxes and union cost have led us to out source but we are still in control of our quality specs and if out source cannot meet spec find a new source, today's thought process is its always someone else's fault, amazing how so many people fall for this excuse.

Gregg

[77 Canamman]

It was a bittersweet day. My mother in law just sold her 2.4 liter 2000 Sunfire which gave her 14 years of excellent service. It only required normal wear items and one muffler, which I just installed a couple of days ago. Even the low end GM's still manage to perform well. We have been looking at the last of the G6's or the Malibus for it's replacement.

[MikeNoun]

GM stock went from around $30 a share in 1990, to $95 a share by 2000. That's when the death spiral set in.

The GM Board Of Directors decided to start hiring people with MBA's from important sounding schools to run GM divisions. Many had little or no automotive background, some didn't even OWN any GM cars before being given a top position in the company.

That was the beginning of the end.

[KS circutguy]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

GM stock went from around $30 a share in 1990, to $95 a share by 2000. That's when the death spiral set in.

The GM Board Of Directors decided to start hiring people with MBA's from important sounding schools to run GM divisions. Many had little or no automotive background, some didn't even OWN any GM cars before being given a top position in the company.

That was the beginning of the end.

Bingo!

[MikeNoun]

What's interesting is that a lot of things were covered up when GM filed bankruptcy. One of the main things was changing their stock ticker. That may seem trivial, but it served a few purposes. Now wherever you look for old GM stock information on the web, it's gone. All they have is the "New GM" data dating back to when they reemerged.

Of course when this latest recall came about, GM stepped up to the plate and said those ignition switches were under the "old" GM, so the blame game was on. I guess it was convenient to say that as they threw Mary Barra under the bus.

Either way, the "new" GM stock entered the market at $34.26 in 2010, and now almost 4 years later, it's worth $37.74, a 10% improvement.

Not a great investment, considering the rest of the stock market is up 67% in that same time period.

[KS circutguy]

Just imagine where the stock will be after the costs of all the re-calls are added.
Also I feel for Mary Barra, no doubt she regrets taking that job.
"Under the bus" indeed.

[The Boss]

Actually what's interesting is that of the 10 vehicles with the highest American Made content, only 3 of them are American and that's even a lie because one of those is a Dodge!

1 Ford, 1 GM, 1 Dodge, 3 Honda & 4 Toyota.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....op&subject=ami