[PontiacCrazy]

Well I have to turn my problems over to the gurus now...
I have A 1970 LeMans...here's A couple details.
60K mile 1970 455 from Bonneville, 1967 rear end with 3.55:1 cone style posi, MSD 6al ignition, accel supercoil, later gm HEI distributor, 2200 stall converter.
Up until A couple weeks ago, I had A one-legged rearend, 3:08 gears. I have been pushing this rearend around for the last couple years, with one tire spinning on launch being the problem. Well, with an open diff, I tried A Warrior racing product GUARANTEED to stop wheel hop..I tried some lakewood traction devices, I tried A pinion snubber...etc. All unsuccessful. So I took the advice of some SMART folks and put in the 2200 stall converter and the 3:55 posi rear.

Wow...I go to my first race..

Stall? Great...tires never broke loose until 2200... perfect. Both tires broke loose...bad. real bad.. I left looooong black marks..feathering the gas was pointless..I let go, I re-engage, spin..

So. I have gone through the chassis. I have A completely new front end, and rearend, all energy suspension, coils in the rear are production high-rate coils. The whole chassis feels great going down the road due to many $ worth of energy suspension, but what good has all this work done me if I can't even leave the starting line straight and with the tires actually moving the car forward?

Now A buddy of mine suggests improved rate drag springs and shocks..says they will work tons better than any ladder or traction type system..

HELP. Anyone been here, done this?

I am dealing with roughly 360 horse, 500 lbs of torque...nothing extravagant, so someone should have A real idea I hope. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks..

[PontiacCrazy]

Well I have to turn my problems over to the gurus now...
I have A 1970 LeMans...here's A couple details.
60K mile 1970 455 from Bonneville, 1967 rear end with 3.55:1 cone style posi, MSD 6al ignition, accel supercoil, later gm HEI distributor, 2200 stall converter.
Up until A couple weeks ago, I had A one-legged rearend, 3:08 gears. I have been pushing this rearend around for the last couple years, with one tire spinning on launch being the problem. Well, with an open diff, I tried A Warrior racing product GUARANTEED to stop wheel hop..I tried some lakewood traction devices, I tried A pinion snubber...etc. All unsuccessful. So I took the advice of some SMART folks and put in the 2200 stall converter and the 3:55 posi rear.

Wow...I go to my first race..

Stall? Great...tires never broke loose until 2200... perfect. Both tires broke loose...bad. real bad.. I left looooong black marks..feathering the gas was pointless..I let go, I re-engage, spin..

So. I have gone through the chassis. I have A completely new front end, and rearend, all energy suspension, coils in the rear are production high-rate coils. The whole chassis feels great going down the road due to many $ worth of energy suspension, but what good has all this work done me if I can't even leave the starting line straight and with the tires actually moving the car forward?

Now A buddy of mine suggests improved rate drag springs and shocks..says they will work tons better than any ladder or traction type system..

HELP. Anyone been here, done this?

I am dealing with roughly 360 horse, 500 lbs of torque...nothing extravagant, so someone should have A real idea I hope. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks..

[Big Injun]

I did not see a mention of the tires you are running. Are you running slicks, DOT tires or just plain old street tires?

The car should hook with any type of sticky tire. If you plan on any street driving, do not go with a "drag" spring. They are made of a softer material and will loose stability on the highway.

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www.PontiacDragDays.com
Dave "Big Injun" Anderson

[PontiacCrazy]

Tires are nothing special- Les Schwab grand am p27560r15..

The thing I hear is my car doesn't squat down in the rear at all when I launch, this is A result of the new shocks and energy suspension i'm sure..would the drag shocks cause it to squat a bit more and stay squatted? The rear end suspension is TIGHT..I mean TIGHT. It rides great, but that's all...

Crossing an intersection at 1/4 throttle in 1st gear, mat the pedal and the car is sideways... I do not have traction at all here.



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* No mister, it just looks like A GTO, but thanks. *

[PROBRD]

I've got a 69 GTO that had a similar problem years ago. It's a 4 speed car. I solved it by adding Lakewood bolt on ladder bars and a set of sticky Mickey Thompson tires. It hooked good enough to twist an axle in two. Had to buy a set of Moser racing axles. I'd say it's probably the tires.

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PROBRD
(probrd1@aol.com)

[PontiacCrazy]

I have had some folks now tell me about tires.. one guy says run my street tires and let the pressure down to about 10 pounds or so...i'm ok with that, but it seems to me with the kind of torque pontiacs are notorious for, wouldn't I just turn the tire on the bead - hence damage?

Another one says try A set of cheater slicks. Well? Ok.. I guess I will try some tire tricks and see where that goes and we'll go from there.

Thanks, folks.

I'll keep you posted.

[Big Injun]

Do not run your street tires at 10 lbs. They will not work and you will harm the tires.

Depending on what your plans are, Drag Racing or Street Racing or just around town driving, you need a set of sticky tires. M/T ET Street is a great Drag or Street Racing tire. If you plan on doing alot of street driving on the tire you may want to us the BFG Drag Radial.

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www.PontiacDragDays.com
Dave "Big Injun" Anderson

[PontiacCrazy]

Well since we're on the subject of tires now, I have heard the BFG Drag T/A tires aren't good for much more than about 500 miles on the street..any truth to this?

I have thought about the drag radials, but in reality, I see more around town driving than I do drag strip. My local drag strip actually just closed forever last fall.. bummer.. and my nearest one for the time being is 3 1/2 hours out.

I'll also tell you, i'm sensible, but i'm a relatively young guy and I do my fair share of farm racing (out where the only thing to hit are cows) in the middle of the night.. that's the beauty of small town. But I really limit my racing to strip. But still, out cruising on A Saturday afternoon and you pull up at the stoplight and there is an angry *ford* sitting beside you, laughing at you with every breath of it's lopey exaust, and the light turns green and you can't go anywhere because of tire spin...

I am looking for A good street/strip setup that is driveable, but not so annoying or troublesome that you can't just hop in and go. I want the best of both worlds.

I am seriously looking into lakewood ladder bars part no 620-20460 in Jegs as noted by ProBrd...any thoughts from you on this Injun? I am looking for anyone/everyone's opinion.

Thanks..

Adam


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* No mister, it just looks like A GTO, but thanks. *

[GP-K]

Adam,

With the things you have done to your suspension, the only real item left, as Probrd, and Big Injun have said are the tires. Most likely the reason the car is not getting planted, is because the tires are not sticking.

Your car has to transmit all of that power & torque through two small patches of rubber with about the same surface area as your hands.

A sticky tire is the only way to ensure you do not "go up in smoke" each time you hit the go pedal.

The BFG Drag radials do have a very short street life, as would many of the other really sticky tires like Hoosier autocrossers, Hoosier quick time drag, Micky Thompsons, M&H, and any other DOT legal drag tires, etc.. First, they (the BFG's & Hoosier autocrossers) start out at 3/32" tread depth, and second the tread compound is very soft (for that better grip), so they start out with less rubber, and the wear faster. But they all will hook up! You would not believe the difference.

One thing to think about: There are other street radials out there that will stick much better than your current Les Schwab grand am tires. Start looking at the tread wear #'s; lower is usually stickier, keep asking around to find out what really works now on the street. Visit the tire stores on the web which specialize in high performance tires like the Tire Rack. Call them and ask them what will work for your application, and what will give you good grip with reasonable (10,000 or so miles hard driving) tread wear. A large tire like a 275 60 will help, but wider does not always = stickier.

The Tire Rack's Web Site

You may want to consider a tire like BFG's Euro T/A in the 245 50 15 size, or something else similar. Just remember that it will have to be a pretty soft tire to stick very well.

Since a wide variety of good 15" tires in the right widths are not readily available, you may want to consider moving up to a 16" wheel.

One last thing: a number of years ago, one of my friends went out and bought a set of Goodyear Eagle ST's for his firebird. They wore like iron, but stuck like ice. We decided the ST was short for slippery tire. The car had trouble running high 16 second 1/4 mile passes at the strip, spinning the whole way down the strip. (he was even staying away from the "bleach" box). With just a change to a better street radial (they just happened to be Goodyear Eagle GT's (which was an ok tire, not great, just ok), the car dropped into the high 14's. So the tire can make a huge difference in your launch, and how well your car stays glued to the ground.

Spend your money on good tires, not more suspension parts (yet), and you won't be disappointed.

Good luck,

K.

[This message has been edited by GP-K (edited 04-20-2000).]

[PontiacCrazy]

Ok, but one thing to remember here- my rear suspension is extremely tight..I am not experiencing wheel hop. I just spin.

I am going to take the advice on tires, but while I'm at it...

I have A friend with a 1968 Camaro. He has A monoleaf suspension in the rear, and had all the same problems I do. No wheel hop, just spinning. He installed A set of SSM "lift bars" and cured A lot of his problem..although 625 horse is hard to handle without A LOT of tire I think. So he still has trouble. I know you guys seem to think that suspension goodies aren't the answer here, but for $150, can I benefit from the SSM parts?

(Ok i've got $150 burning A hole in my wallet!)

Adam


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* No mister, it just looks like A GTO, but thanks. *

[Karch]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you will not get wheel hop until you start getting some traction, then the springs wind up and start unwinding, and the load/unload cycle leads to wheel hop. That said...I run McCreary Dirt Stars with less than satisfactory results, but they do last a bit. 50 miles each way to LACR, then run my 2.0 second 60 footers, at 2800' elevation. Car did a best of 103.5 mph at that track. I plan on getting ET Streets, and should get better results. My suggestion, if affordable, play on the streets with the McCrearys, and get a pair of something better for track only, or a pair of really sticky DOT's, but run your radials to/from track. That is why we have these roomy trunks, right?

[Tom McQueen]

Are you using adjustable upper control arms? These allow for changing both the angle of the upper arms as well as the length of the upper arms. What is the pinion angle?

[PontiacCrazy]

Adjustable control arms - no. I am running stock units.

Pinion angle is set at stock angle. I have not changed it. I have heard talk of setting it (pointed downward further) somewhere between 7 an 17 degrees? I did this to A 1970 chev shortbox A few years ago, but never got to try it on the track so I don't know what that did..I know the theory behind it. That was A leaf spring setup, can you accomplish the same thing by moving all the mount points? Pardon me and excuse the phrase, but all those mounts, wouldn't that be A real pain in the ass?

Adam


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* No mister, it just looks like A GTO, but thanks. *

[Tom McQueen]

By going to the completely adjustable upper arms you can accomplish 2 things. Setting the pinion angle becomes a simple matter of changing the length of the arms, and changing the angle of the arms allows for instant center changes. All this stuff is bolt on.

[PontiacCrazy]

So - I thought the SSM lift bars were fully adjustable...

Have you used these (are you currently using) these adjustable upper control arms? Where do I get them as I don't recall seeing an advertisement for them anywhere.. DO THEY REALLY WORK??

Adam


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* No mister, it just looks like A GTO, but thanks. *

[PontiacCrazy]

I wonder if IPSChassis.com makes performance chassis stuff for Ponchos?


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* No mister, it just looks like A GTO, but thanks. *