#81  
Old 09-13-2020, 03:17 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Originally Posted by 61-63 View Post
I asked you some # of posts ago what type of pistons you had; cast, forged, or hyper. You never answered. If they are hyper then the .020 ring gap you mentioned somewhere above is way too tight, and the engine seizing could be the result of the top rings expanding due to heat and stopping piston travel. Most of the time this starts popping the top ring lands off but if it occurred just as you lifted off the throttle could have just seized the engine. In one of those pictures it looks like part of a top ring land has popped off.

I came back. The thing I saw is shadow so nix my comment re a ring land coming off. Is that stuff in the pan aluminum or steel/iron?
Ross - Forged Aluminum. I followed the instructions on gap. Total Seal rings.

In regards to the metal, I will take a magnet to it tomorrow and check.

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1965 Pontiac GTO
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Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #82  
Old 09-13-2020, 03:19 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
Does the engine rotate now?



No. Frozen solid in both directions. I've taken it down to the short block and moved the engine from the stand to the cradle for transport. So, I'm not tearing it down further at this point.

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1965 Pontiac GTO
455/469 w/ #48 Heads, '65 Tri-Power
9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #83  
Old 09-13-2020, 04:04 AM
KEN CROCIE KEN CROCIE is offline
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take a look at the thrust bearing (#4). "weird feeling in the clutch when downshifting"

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  #84  
Old 09-13-2020, 05:38 AM
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Looks like from that on photo that the Crank weight is up against the block as if the thrust Bearing gave up.

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  #85  
Old 09-13-2020, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wbnapier View Post
In April, I started building an engine, and today was the first real drive other than around the block and in running in the driveway for tuning purposes.

Downshifting while exiting the interstate, I lost power and needed to be towed home. I thought I had an electrical issue or something, but after going over the engine this afternoon, the worst is apparent. In nuetral, spark plugs out, dizzy out, I am unable to rotate the motor with a breaker bar.

A couple of the spark plug gaps had completely closed, indicating detonation or something weird.

It is a 0.040" over 455, 4.25" stroke. Butler rotation assembly, Stump Puller II cam, etc., etc., Pistons were dished for 91 CA gas. Tri-Power, medium ported #48 heads, etc. Everything redone, no expense spared. Block, heads, etc. all prepped by a really good machinist. Not a single leak.

I will have to sell the car as is. No more time or money. '65 GTO, 4 speed, 3.55 gears, PS, no AC. Not a stock, car, but a good mild restomod. I don't know what I can sell a non running GTO for, but hopefully cover my loss on the engine. Not a good Labor Day.
I would pull all the main caps and check and see if the radiuses on the crank are not seizing it up..

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  #86  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:08 AM
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But how does that account for the plugs? Not one but 3!

  #87  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:12 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE View Post
take a look at the thrust bearing (#4). "weird feeling in the clutch when downshifting"
Attached are close ups of #4 from one side.
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1965 Pontiac GTO
455/469 w/ #48 Heads, '65 Tri-Power
9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #88  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
But how does that account for the plugs? Not one but 3!

Spun rod bearings.



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  #89  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:19 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Originally Posted by hgiv View Post
But how does that account for the plugs? Not one but 3!
That's a real mystery. No idea. I gapped them and then verified the gap on all 8 before install. For the record, my experience is that most plugs have some gap out of the box too. Therefore, I was either sleepwalking one night and closed the gap or something weird happened. Attached are photos. The color difference must be from lack of combustion / proper ignition???
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1965 Pontiac GTO
455/469 w/ #48 Heads, '65 Tri-Power
9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #90  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:22 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Originally Posted by 61-63 View Post
I asked you some # of posts ago what type of pistons you had; cast, forged, or hyper. You never answered. If they are hyper then the .020 ring gap you mentioned somewhere above is way too tight, and the engine seizing could be the result of the top rings expanding due to heat and stopping piston travel. Most of the time this starts popping the top ring lands off but if it occurred just as you lifted off the throttle could have just seized the engine. In one of those pictures it looks like part of a top ring land has popped off.

I came back. The thing I saw is shadow so nix my comment re a ring land coming off. Is that stuff in the pan aluminum or steel/iron?
The shrapnel is ferrous.

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1965 Pontiac GTO
455/469 w/ #48 Heads, '65 Tri-Power
9.25:1 CR
Stump Puller Cam
Muncie M22W 1st-2.56 2nd-1.75 3rd-1.37 4th-1.00
3.55 Rear Differential
Front: 225/60R15 Height: 25.6"
Rear: 275/60R15 Height: 28"
  #91  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:35 AM
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Thanks for the responses you pretty much ruled out a ring gap problem I guess.. It will be interesting to hear what your machinist comes up with as he tears the short block down.

  #92  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:38 AM
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Is it possible it "simply" jumped time? The timing chain gear had a piece missing - ferrous material.

  #93  
Old 09-13-2020, 10:59 AM
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Whatever it turns out to be, it seems to have happened rather quickly as there was no evidence of the shrapnel in the oil filter. Ferrous at that, would have bet it was aluminum. Counterweights hitting the block at high RPM?

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  #94  
Old 09-13-2020, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
The color difference must be from lack of combustion / proper ignition???

Lack of color is from not firing because of the closed gap.

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  #95  
Old 09-13-2020, 11:57 AM
Singleton Singleton is offline
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Oil Galley plug contacting cam gear?
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  #96  
Old 09-13-2020, 12:01 PM
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That main cap doesn't look tight against the block.

And does look like the bearing turned.



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  #97  
Old 09-13-2020, 12:07 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE View Post
take a look at the thrust bearing (#4). "weird feeling in the clutch when downshifting"
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbnapier View Post
Attached are close ups of #4 from one side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER" View Post
... does look like the bearing turned.
That's what i was seeing too - looks like the parting line of the bearing shell has turned about 1/2" - if the picture isn't playing tricks.

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  #98  
Old 09-13-2020, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
Here's another checklist of mine:

Engine Build Sheet pdf


And one from Lee Atkinson:

Assembly Check List
Thanks, John. These are great, I downloaded one of each.

Looking at the photos, it is really difficult to sumise exactly what happened to that engine. From what Tom S said (post #13) I think the machinist will have no problems diagnosing this unfortunate disaster.

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  #99  
Old 09-13-2020, 12:21 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Now that I have had a chance to see some pics, I think you will find a bunch of spun bearings when you open it up all the way. Looks like the thrust main may be spun some based on parting line position. The plugs are not smashed as I suspected, just kissed by the pistons once the rod bearings went away. The entire bottom end looks "tight" visually from the pics. Rod side clearance to cylinder wall wear, you name it. An engine will only live on the tight end of the tolerances if all the machining is dead nuts on, which is rarely the case unless every part is verified, especially aftermarket stuff. Good luck with the outcome. It can probably be fixed without too much expense. Looks like everything stayed attached.

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  #100  
Old 09-13-2020, 12:32 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbnapier View Post
It is a 0.040" over 455, 4.25" stroke. Butler rotation assembly, Stump Puller II cam, etc., etc., Pistons were dished for 91 CA gas. Tri-Power, medium ported #48 heads, etc. Everything redone, no expense spared. Block, heads, etc. all prepped by a really good machinist. Not a single leak.
Really truly sorry the thang is fighting you.
Can tell you tried to do meticulous assembly work on it.
And a great group of parts
I hope you get to drive it again.

Spun rod bearing(s) will usually rotate backwards after cool down, and have made plenty of racket on its way south.
So its probably locked in the main(s).
Maybe why it cracked cam gear at keyway, from the sudden stop of crankshaft.

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