["Teacher]

HI,
This is the continuation of a discussion I started on the 69 GTO thread.I'll try to bring you up to speed.
Last week my school bought a 1969 Lemans off of ebay for $850 to use as a student restoration project. Well, it certaoinly was far worse than advertized, and got worse as we tore it farther apart. We were going to make it into a judge clone, but now we are afraid we should just dismantle the car and hope to get our $850 back.
The problem is rust...all over the place. I cringed when we removed the trunk seal and the channel basically came off with it. Then when we removed the chrome plate at the bottom of the windsheild, there was a two inch canyon between the cowl and the dashboard, with both being reduced by 1" in each direction.Then we pulled the package tray and it holes in the base, as well as around the back window. The windshield channel is also rusted through in spots above the glass, as well as the lower pillar corners.
The car is an A/C car with a 350 and turbo 400. It has bucket seats, a floor shifter and console. The glass , with the exception of the windshield is in good shape. the back seat is almost perfect,all the chrome is good except for the bumpers. The rest of the interior needs replaced: dash, panels, seat covers,console, headliner, all of it. There is a crack in the frame just inside the rear tire well. the frame seems solid, the front fenders are straight, the q-panels are almost savable. The trunk lid is junk as is the hood.The doors aren't bad, just a few bubbles in the corners, perhaps reskinning would be in order.

But my concern, and what makes me think it is unsavable, is the cowl/dash issue and the trunkseal channel. Shall I try this? I was told there are guys on this thread that have tackled this before and can maybe help.
So I'll throw out the question. Should I attempt to fix this Lemans or cut my losses and sell the usable parts? Are there even the parts available to fix it?

Help me, goatmeisters, you're my only hope...

["Teacher]

HI,
This is the continuation of a discussion I started on the 69 GTO thread.I'll try to bring you up to speed.
Last week my school bought a 1969 Lemans off of ebay for $850 to use as a student restoration project. Well, it certaoinly was far worse than advertized, and got worse as we tore it farther apart. We were going to make it into a judge clone, but now we are afraid we should just dismantle the car and hope to get our $850 back.
The problem is rust...all over the place. I cringed when we removed the trunk seal and the channel basically came off with it. Then when we removed the chrome plate at the bottom of the windsheild, there was a two inch canyon between the cowl and the dashboard, with both being reduced by 1" in each direction.Then we pulled the package tray and it holes in the base, as well as around the back window. The windshield channel is also rusted through in spots above the glass, as well as the lower pillar corners.
The car is an A/C car with a 350 and turbo 400. It has bucket seats, a floor shifter and console. The glass , with the exception of the windshield is in good shape. the back seat is almost perfect,all the chrome is good except for the bumpers. The rest of the interior needs replaced: dash, panels, seat covers,console, headliner, all of it. There is a crack in the frame just inside the rear tire well. the frame seems solid, the front fenders are straight, the q-panels are almost savable. The trunk lid is junk as is the hood.The doors aren't bad, just a few bubbles in the corners, perhaps reskinning would be in order.

But my concern, and what makes me think it is unsavable, is the cowl/dash issue and the trunkseal channel. Shall I try this? I was told there are guys on this thread that have tackled this before and can maybe help.
So I'll throw out the question. Should I attempt to fix this Lemans or cut my losses and sell the usable parts? Are there even the parts available to fix it?

Help me, goatmeisters, you're my only hope...

[n c rod]

If you go forward on this project emai me @holbrook@ctc.net. I have a few parts left after PAYING to restore a 70 and 72 GTO convert and would donate what I can to help. PS ,I know that Pontiac did not make a 72 convertible, but with the help of a few friends I did. ROD

[md1twal3]

There is also a gentleman on the forum named Bill Morgan (you can see some of his posts in items for sale). I know he has a few Lemans/GTOs that he is parting and probably has some parts to help you out.

He is in Lubbock Texas, is one heck of a nice guy and his prices are great too!

I haven't seen your project, but your description is just like my Judge....YOU CAN SAVE IT...How thrifty you do it is up to you, but it can be done.

[troy_barker]

I will toss in my 2 cent worth of advice here.

If this is a school project and you are in the teaching mode I would think you should tackle the restoration. Allot of teaching could take place here that would be benifical to your students.

You could approach this a numbers of way.

Lesson 1, you could state if you were to look for a car to restore this would NOT be a good canidate and then explain why.

Lesson 2, you could always explain why you should always inspect the car in person or use a thrid party perform the inspection prior to purchase.

Lesson 3, restore the car and get with the metal shop and have them assist in forming new parts, or you could fab them yourself or purchase them.

Lesson 4, you could teach then how to perform prep/prime and painting.

Not sure what your time table is, if you do not have the time for the restore you might just teach lesson 1 and 2 then dismantel the car and perform inspection of parts then part the car out.

Good luck.

["Teacher]

Thnaks for your advice.
This was to be a two year project. I should indeed teach lessons one and two, although it is a sad commentary that one cannot believe a seller is representing his car honestly. To this point, my Ebay transactions have always been on the up and up. Here is the original ad for the auction:

>>>>>>>>>>>Ok guys and gals here is a car that could really turn into something nice. First, I will give you all the good stuff and then we will do the rest.

This is a one owner, 1969 Pontiac Lemans with a clear title. I bought this from my Middle School principal, well that was quite a few years ago but he recently retired and he and his wife bought this car new in 1969, this was their first car. I have the "original title". He told me that he drove it most of the time and then he let his brother drive it. It was last inspected in 1984. I believe that it sat next to his mothers house ever since. So it has sat for about 21 years out in the open. It has a 350 automatic, bucket seats and console in the floor. It has the PMD logo on the shifter. Also I have the original PMD hubcaps, all but one are on good condition. This could be a great parts car or you can fix it up. The seats are in descent shape but when I got it, it had allot of books that had fallen apart in the drivers seat, actually the whole car was full of stuff. There are indentions and a hole in the passener seat where and old record player sat for 20 years. The dash is good and the whole car is there. There is nothing missing excpet for things that I will mention later. The console is in good shape and all windows, window handles, door handles, all chrome , bumpers, engine parts are all there. This is an original un-tampered with car. The paint is peeling but I see no rust thru in the normal places but I do see rust thru on the hood where the wipers are and there is rust thru in the trunk and the back of the old vinly top. The rust thru on the back is why it rusted thru in the trunk. I have a close up of the trunk rust. The carpet is there but it is not going to be useful. It has rotted away but is kinda just sitting there. The original owner is looking for the keys, so I have not tried to start it but the motor is all there and there has been no tinkering with it. I have the air cleaner but it was in the trunk and has about rusted away. There are a few of the Lemans and Pontiac letters missing but just 1 or 2. I can get that exact if you need me to. It had a vinyl top and there is surface rust on most of the car. Some putty but no major wrecks. The back window seal leaks. This is an original factory A/C car.<<<<<<<<

As you can see, he played up the rig, especially the seats and the "lack of rust". However, I should have known better when he mentioned the rear window seal leaking. But my 66 Plymouth had a rear window seal leak with no rust out at all. The carpet was not only "just siting there", it was soaked. The driver's seat is rusted to almost nothing.The dash had two cracks in it and was so brittle you could crack it by touching it.
Anyway, water under the bridge. The seller says he'll try to come up with anthoer 69 and will donate it to us to help make up for it. I'm not holding my breath.

The main point is, what does it take to replace that cowl/ dash area, if the damage is confined to that? Does a new q-panel include the trunk seal channel? The old ones look like they do, but I could be mistaken. Thanks, and continue to give me input on this. You say we CAN do this job. The question, can we do it practically? And the other question , "SHOULD we do it?"

Also, to the guy who offered to donate parts, Thank you. If we can get the parts, I'll do it. But I'm not going to go out and buy another Lemans just for a cowl, dash and rear window channel.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Proceed.

All the rust you mentioned is set in areas that don't get seen.

[george kujanski]

You have gotten quite a bit of education so far . Just kidding....

As Troy says, for an educational project, you and the class will probably learn more from this experience than any other.

A comment on judging the condition of the car from an ebay ad; "it has sat for about 21 years out in the open", that should have been your first clue that rust would be everywhere.

In any case, $850 isn't too bad. Guys have spent more and got less.

Have at it.
George

[mike nixon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by george kujanski:
You have gotten quite a bit of education so far . Just kidding....

As Troy says, for an educational project, you and the class will probably learn more from this experience than any other.

A comment on judging the condition of the car from an ebay ad; "it has sat for about 21 years out in the open", that should have been your first clue that rust would be everywhere.

In any case, $850 isn't too bad. Guys have spent more and got less.

Have at it.
George </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what goerge said.

education is all about the learning experience and this car will be educational.

mike

[bmpmdf]

I wish my schools project hadn't been an already near perfect car so we could have learned something besides sanding it down for a paint job. I am 42 and still can't do bodywork. Do it and teach these kids PLEASE!!!! Most trade schools have fallen into the only unbolt and rebolt nightmare. What are these kids going to do with a real body redo in the future? Don't make them like me!!!

[GTO Beech]

I agree with all of the above. The kids need to learn how to do the things needed to bring this car back. Contact a local Pontiac or GTO club and see what kind of assistance they would be willing to help out with. This is a great opportunity for the entire class, even if it takes three years.

["Teacher]

Here's a picture of "'Ol Crusty", as my students call it, as it rolled onto campus, with a couple of my freshmen.

[img]Dsc3431[/img]

["Teacher]

Here's the nose.

[img]Dsc03432[/img]

["Teacher]

Okay, what gives? Are you guys getting the pics at your end? I'm just getting red X boxes.

[george kujanski]

no pix here; try resizing so the pic is smaller than 60KB;used to be the limit in the Lobby, maybe still is.

George

[CraigGT37]

Unfortunatly most ebay sellers are not honest in their descriptions,sometimes pics help but you cant tell alot without looking at it in person.
At the vocational school here they have a great automotive program,both body and mechanical.They had a 1923 740 stanley steamer roadster,when they recieved it it was a pile of parts with some missing.It took 3 1/2 years to restore it.They had to make alot of parts in the machine trades program to replace the parts that were missing.The kids were proud of all the work they put into that car.They ending up selling it on ebay for over 40K.
Here is a link to an article about it. http://www.chronicletelegram.com/200...tml/Head5.html
Most of the parts that you need are available new.The cowl panel is not that hard to find or replace.I replaced one on my ex bosses 71 GS conv.Here is a link of a place that has one http://www.gmsports.com/pfs.asp?page=8
Craig

["Teacher]

I heard from the guy who sold me the Lemans today. It seems that the car he was going to "make good" with he wants to sell to me at a profit. Apparently he did not feel as bad as said.He insists that he was completely honest in his ad on Ebay and that the extra rust was only found after the car was disassembled. That is simply not true, especially the fenders, doors and q-panels.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...