[ponyakr]

Here's some pics when Ken Shawver had it, & a couple after Don Turk got it.

[ponyakr]

Found a list of nat event wins/RU's up thru 2000. DRC has 'em from 1998-up.

Jim Wangers won Stock at the 1960 Nationals.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1960

https://www.sema.org/sema-news/2010/...liminator-1960

Next win I see is in '66. Arlen Vanke won the Spring Nats, & Bill Abraham was RU. I assume it was an all-Pontiac final, between 2 of the Bill Knafel Tin Indian GTO'S. If this is not correct, somebody please post the correct info.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1966

Bill Abraham was also RU @ the World Finals that year, in another all-Pontiac final, against Jay Hamilton's '58 Pontiac. Abraham was driving the '65 Tin Indian GTO.

http://www.classracer.com/classforum...9&postcount=53

Hey ya'll, that ain't bad. There were 4 nat events that year, & there was an all-Pontiac Stock final, at half of 'em !

Jay Hamilton also won the Spring Nats, in '67.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1967

[ponyakr]

n '69, Max Sterling won D/S & got the Stock win, @ the Spring Nats, in the White Lightning 421SD car.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...ite-lightning/

John Thropp was RU, at the World Finals.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1969

Next Pontiac names I recognize are the US Nats Stock winners for '73 & '74, Truman Fields & Al Vanis.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1973

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1974

In '75, Mick Leiferman began his 3-year run of RU finishes, at the US Nats, in his '71 GTO.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1975

[ponyakr]

In '76, Charlene Wood won the Grandnational race, North of the border, in one of the Tons-a-Fun '72 Lemans wagons. Mick Leiferman got his 2nd RU at the US Nats, as well as RU @ the Summer Nats. Rock Running got RU @ the Gators.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1976

Then of course, in '77, Mike McKinney won Stock & Mick got his 3rd RU in a row, at the US Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1977

In '78, Rock got RU @ the World Finals.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1978

In '80, Ray Stover got RU @ the Spring Nats, in his Kathy's Clown '70 GTO.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1980

[ponyakr]

In '81, Rock Running won the Spring Nats & was RU @ the US Nats. Larry Maxwell was RU @ the World Finals.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1981

In '82, Rock was RU @ the Summer Nats & Larry Maxwell was RU again, @ the World Finals. Billy Joe Moravits was RU @ the Cajuns.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1982

In '83, Roy McKinney got RU @ the Sports Nats, & Larry Maxwell got RU @ the Golden State Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1983

In '85, Mike McKinney won the Spring Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1985

In '87, Harry Axemaker won Stock @ the Winter Nats. John Schloe was RU @ the Mile-High Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1987

In '88, Ken Shawver won the US Nats ! Harry Axemaker won the Northstar Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1988

[ponyakr]

In '93, Jack Larsen is listed as the winner @ the Slick 50 Nats. The only car I show for Jack is a '77 Lemans. But, I have no idea what he was driving when he won that race. Anybody know ? Mike McDonald won the Chief Nats, & was RU @ the US Nats, in a '74 GTO. It is the same car that Brad Koivisto drives now.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1993

In '95, Don Elgin won the northwest Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1995

In '96, Lee Bannister was RU @ the Western Auto Nats.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1996

Then DRC has all the nat event results from '98-up.

[ponyakr]

Well, I've posted some info & pics, & made some mad with my opinions. So, I reckin that's pretty typical of many of my threads, since I've been on this forum.

Just goes to show, that no matter what you say, somebody ain't gonna like it. And, no matter what your opinion, there will be others with a different opinion, about the same subject.

So, I'll just admit here that I have expressed my opinions about things concerning Stock racing, and & am well aware that some do not share my opinions. Not saying who's right or wrong. Just saying that opinions differ on this & most other subjects.

So, everybody will just have to search out the facts for themselves & come to their own conclusions.

Sure wish somebody here would start a Stocker build thread we could follow.

At the very least, I wish somebody would be willing to do some testing of Stock legal parts on their bracket car. Would be very interesting to see how different head mods & cam changes affect ET. Converter & rear gear ratio testing would also be very interesting. But, I realize that kind of serious track testing would be very costly & time consuming. So, I wouldn't really expect any volunteers.

Sure is a LOT of Pontiac stuff I'm gonna do when I win the big jackpot !

With enuff money, I could hire people to do all the testing I'd like to see done, as well as have all the aftermarket parts made that I'd like to see in production.

I suppose most people have thought about things they'd do, if they had millions.

I'm just one of a VERY small percentage of the population who would spend lots of money on Pontiac related stuff. Hey, it don't hurt to dream.

Anyhow, is there anybody here who has the time, money, & know-how, who is willing use those resources to test Stocker parts & combos. Hey, it's a LONGSHOT ! But, it would only take one guy to pull it off. Or one guy with enuff money who was willing to pay others to do the testing.

[ponyakr]

OK, at the div 7 race, in AZ, Rick Unterseh qualified #1, with his 301 Turbo Bird. He was 1.334 sec under his index.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2020/lu...ock-eliminator

At some races, that would have triggered an automatic hp factor increase from NHRA. But, the 1st race of this doubleheader is what is called a "National Open" race. The automatic hp increase does not apply, at the nat open races.

The hp factors are controlled by a very complicated system, which is referred to by NHRA as the Automatic Horsepower Factoring System(AHFS). Here are the details.

http://www.nhraracer.com/content/gen...633&zoneid=132

[ponyakr]

I think this has been mentioned already. But I'm not gonna go back thru the thread to see. And probably, nobody else will either.

At this div 7 race, Ryan Schloe was #18 on the list. He ran .950 under his F/SA index.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

This list shows that he is now claiming a '73 Bird. So, he is now running a 4X head 455.

He use to run a #66 head 455 in a '71 Firebird. Many here have really badmouthed those #66 heads. Best time I can remember for that car was 11.40's

So it appears that the head change resulted in at least a .3-.4 ET improvement. Part of this improvement was probably a result of being able to run less weight. This is because the '73 D-port 455 engine has a lower NHRA hp factor.

So, has anybody here ever run the #66 heads ? How about the big chamber 4X 455 heads ? So, does anybody know if there is really a performance difference between the 2 heads, at the same CR ?

I think most here just dismiss all big chamber 455 heads, because of the low CR they produce. But, I assume they have potential, since Adam Davis ran some high 10's with his '73 D-port 455 Bird, & Ryan Schloe ran below 11.50 with his '71 #66 head 455 Bird.

Anyhow, for this thread, this proves, once again that the '73 Bird, with a 4X head 455 is a very competitive Stock combo. The NHRA hp, in a Bird, is 306hp. As I've said, this may be the most competitive D-port 455 combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

And, at only 310hp, it may also be a decent SS combo, tho by no means the best.

[ponyakr]

Would be real interesting, to me, to know the duration specs of the cam Ryan's 4X head 455 is running.

We know how nasty some of the 400 Stocker cams have been. And we know that some of those 400's have turned 8000 rpm, & maybe a little over.

They're obviously not turning the 455 that high. But, guys here have said that the same cam will act smaller in a 455, than in a 400. So, I suspect the cams MAY be very similar in the 455 as in some of the quick, high rpm D-port 400's.

As with most competitive Stock racers, I assume the Schloes have experimented with several cams, trying to find the best one for their 455.

We know the max lift of the cam, since NHRA sets that, for each combination. For the '73 4X head 455, the max intake lift is .421, @ the valve, with 1.5 rockers. Max exhaust lift is .425 @ the valve, with 1.5 rockers.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

But, NHRA does not limit cam duration or valve spring pressure. That's what has allowed the 400 engines to run those high rpm they run. The cams have LOTS of duration, & the springs have LOTS of pressure.

These cam/spring rules have resulted in some very high dollar cams & lifters. In fact, it has been said that you could run a solid roller cam cheaper than the high dollar stuff many Stockers have been running. Because of the high spring pressures, regular cam cores & regular lifters are just too soft to last very long. They must be made of better materials. And some have special coatings, to make 'em last longer.

I don't really know how much spring pressure the normal flat tappet shelf cam & lifters can stand, without premature failure.

Just out of curiosity, who here has run one or more big flat tappet cams, with lots of spring pressure & had 'em last a long time under race conditions ?

For those who have, how much spring pressure did you run ? What was your max rpm each pass. Exactly what type & brand lifters did you run ?

I assume that Hylift Johnson makes the best commonly used HFT lifter cores. Rhoads uses those cores. So, I assume that either the Hylift Johnson or Rhoads would be the best HFT lifters we could buy.

So, who has used these lifters, with high spring pressures, at high rpm ? For those who have, please give us all the info you.

Now, what about solid flat tappet lifters ? You can now run those in most Stocker engines that came with a flat tappet cam. Are there any commonly available SFT lifters that are made of better material than the Hylift Johnson HFT lifters ?

I've read that because of the high spring pressures used in Stocker engines, you shouldn't use the lifters with the holes in the face for extra oiling.

Lots of Stocker guys are now using tool steel lifters, which are sold by a few companies. These are much harder than regular street lifters. I think they also require harder cam cores. And I think some also have the cam & lifters coated, or treated in some way, to make 'em last longer.

A few years back, LOTS of Stock racers were using Shubeck lifters, which had a ceramic face of some sort. Some have quit using those, since there have been lots of failures.

Scott Burton mentioned that he ran those lifters in his RAIV engine.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-...tiac-firebird/

The tool steel lifters are sold by several companies. I assume you'd have to buy Chevy lifters, for a Pontiac, & do the oil feed groove thing that Paul Carter does for using the Chevy roller lifters.

https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...06&postcount=2

http://trendperform.com/c-1149649-lifters-tappets.html

https://www.pppcenter.com/06Catpgs/C5.pdf

Pretty sure that neither CC nor Howards makes lifters. So, these may be be made by one of the above companies. Don't really know how many companies make 'em.

https://www.compcams.com/tool-steel-...chevrolet.html

https://www.jegs.com/i/Darrell+Russe...oaAthZEALw_wcB

Hey, some of those Stocker guys spare no expense. Stock is no longer the entry level class it use to be. But, just to barely run your index, you don't need the really high dollar, high rpm parts.

http://www.classracer.com/classforum...32&postcount=5

[ponyakr]

Hey, ya'll wanna read something really cool ?

Somebody posted a pic on my FB page, they got off the Vintage Pontiac Race Cars page. It was of a '72 E/SA Formy, from back in the old days. It had OLSON on the door.

I posted the pic on the Class Racer forum, asking if anybody had any info on the car. Got no response, so didn't figure I'd get any. But, today I got a big surprise. Here's a link to the post.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=449

Wow ! And I've said many times that my 1st Pontiac hero was Truman Fields.

[tininjun68]

Keep up the good posts!

There was an old ‘61 wagon stocker, may have been a Catalina? It said “deliveries to the back” as a shot against Chebby sedan deliveries. I only know it from the “Racing the family sedan” book published maybe 15 years ago. Would love to know what happened to that Beaut!

[ponyakr]

OK, I've mentioned that both '74 & '77 400's have been competitive engines.

At the div 4 race, in Belle Rose, LA, Logan Galbraith is #23 qualifier @ .980 under, in his '74 Grand Am, & Wayne Larsen is #36 @ .873 under, driving a '77 Lemans.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by tininjun68

...There was an old ‘61 wagon stocker, may have been a Catalina? It said “deliveries to the back” as a shot against Chebby sedan deliveries. I only know it from the “Racing the family sedan” book published maybe 15 years ago. Would love to know what happened to that Beaut!

Yeah, I know just the car you're talkin about. A guy recently gave me a copy of that book. It's about Junior Stock, 1st published in 2012 I think.

The wagon was actually a Bonny. The book says it set 5 national records, & got class RU at Indy, in '68. Says it ran as quick as a 12.80. That's was pretty quick for a wagon that heavy, back in those days.

I call it the #975 wagon. It had Lumley & Sanders on the front fenders.

[ponyakr]

At the div 4 race, they're running for class wins. Logan Galbraith & Wayne Larsen are both running N/SA. They're in the class final. In the semi, Logan ran an 11.95, which is more than a sec under the 13.00 N/SA index. Don't think Wayne can run that quick. So, unless Logan makes a mistake, he should win class.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2091

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

At the div 4 race, they're running for class wins. Logan Galbraith & Wayne Larsen are both running N/SA. They're in the class final. In the semi, Logan ran an 11.95, which is more than a sec under the 13.00 N/SA index. Don't think Wayne can run that quick. So, unless Logan makes a mistake, he should win class.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2091

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Since you seem to be able to find all of this information. Maybe you can find out how the N/SA index changed in the last few days?

Psn--Num--Class-Driver,-Home-Town,-Machine-----------------ET---Index---(+/-)
-33-7769---N/SA-Rick-Unterseh,-Glendale-AZ,-'81-Firebird--12.486-13.36---0.874

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

Stan

[ponyakr]

Yeah, I'll answer that one for you Stan.

I assume that most here already know. But, for those who don't, the index numbers are adjusted for races held at higher altitude tracks. A real good example is for the Mile-High Nats, held in Colorado.

The N/SA index was 13.82 at last years race. And, Gary Riley won that race, running N/SA, with his '74 wagon, in an all-Pontiac final, against Dwaine Davis.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

At Vegas N/SA was 13.22.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

But, at most low altitude tracks, including Indy, the N/SA index is 13.00. Logan ran an 11.96 @ Indy, last year.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

I don't know the exact formula NHRA uses for figuring the index for each track. Some here probably know. If so, maybe they'll post that info. I'll do some searching & see what i can find out.

https://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/altitude.html

http://www.nhraracer.com/content/gen...511&zoneid=175

http://www.nhraracer.com/content/gen...874&zoneid=175

Here's something I didn't know. The altitude correction factor was 1st used at Amarillo, in 1971. I went to the World Finals there, in '73.

https://books.google.com/books?id=S3...actors&f=false

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Yeah, I'll answer that one for you Stan.

I assume that most here already know. But, for those who don't, the index numbers are adjusted for races held at higher altitude tracks. A real good example is for the Mile-High Nats, held in Colorado.

The N/SA index was 13.82 at last years race. And, Gary Riley won that race, running N/SA, with his '74 wagon, in an all-Pontiac final, against Dwaine Davis.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

At Vegas N/SA was 13.22.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Thank you. I did know that the indexes were adjusted for Colorado. I did not realize that Tucson, Ariz was at an altitude that would cause an adjustment.

Stan

[ponyakr]

As expected, Logan picked up the N/SA class win, @ the div 4 race. He ran an 11.943, on a 13.00 index.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I think this has been mentioned already. But I'm not gonna go back thru the thread to see. And probably, nobody else will either.

At this div 7 race, Ryan Schloe was #18 on the list. He ran .950 under his F/SA index.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

This list shows that he is now claiming a '73 Bird. So, he is now running a 4X head 455.

He use to run a #66 head 455 in a '71 Firebird. Many here have really badmouthed those #66 heads. Best time I can remember for that car was 11.40's

So it appears that the head change resulted in at least a .3-.4 ET improvement. Part of this improvement was probably a result of being able to run less weight. This is because the '73 D-port 455 engine has a lower NHRA hp factor.

So, has anybody here ever run the #66 heads ? How about the big chamber 4X 455 heads ? So, does anybody know if there is really a performance difference between the 2 heads, at the same CR ?

I think most here just dismiss all big chamber 455 heads, because of the low CR they produce. But, I assume they have potential, since Adam Davis ran some high 10's with his '73 D-port 455 Bird, & Ryan Schloe ran below 11.50 with his '71 #66 head 455 Bird.

Anyhow, for this thread, this proves, once again that the '73 Bird, with a 4X head 455 is a very competitive Stock combo. The NHRA hp, in a Bird, is 306hp. As I've said, this may be the most competitive D-port 455 combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

And, at only 310hp, it may also be a decent SS combo, tho by no means the best.

I have a 73 455 4X engine. Previous owner had it in a 3rd gen Camero , ran 12.20 with Lunat1 .540-.240 cam and a RPM intake with 750. It was just thrown together. I told the guy to get some forged rods and pistons, he didn't and stacked one rod bearing on top of each other. He shut it down before it seized and I picked it up for for 350$ along with some 15 and 17 heads and T400 case.
I run HO heads and have done very well with them.