[PontGuy]

I've been reading about Pontiacstogo's ignition adventures. Had plenty of my own adventures getting the carb on my TA the last few nights but finally pretty sure I have it licked.

Pulling the high-pressure electric fuel pump and the hacked-up rear fuel lines was easy, and the new rear fuel lines went in without any drama. But one of the front lines they sent me was wrong. Luckily the front lines on the car are not hacked up so I was still able to connect to the new mechanical fuel pump.

With all that done I pulled my Cliff Q-jet from the Lemans Sunday and installed it on the TA engine. After I put it all together I realized that the TA accelerator cable was not compatible with the 69 carb linkage, and the mounting stud was not removable. So I rigged it up best I could just for a test drive. I got out of the neighborhood and the cable came loose the first time I stepped on the gas hard. I had to pull it all apart and re-rig it on the side of the road. And then just limped home.

When the new 74 TA carb arrived Monday I installed it on the Lemans to test (known good engine with wide-band gauge). It started up and idled perfect so I took it out on the road. Good A/F readings, no bogs, typical Cliff Q-jet... until it flooded out and left me on the side of the road. Something was obviously wrong with the needle seat. I called the wife to come get me, then drove back to the house and pulled the other carb off the TA, drove back to the Lemans and did a side-of-the-road carb swap in the dark.

So I got stuck on side of road in two different cars in two consecutive nights... but at least I avoided the flatbed.

Tonight I pulled the top off the new carb and inspected the needle seat. Everything looked good so I just cleaned it out thoroughly and made sure that there were no shavings or debris in the carb inlet. Reassembled and installed the carb again, this time on the TA. Then drove around the neighborhood for a while. It seems to work good (and this time no flooding out!) But I want to wait until daylight before taking out for a real test.

Throttle response on the TA engine is 100% improved with the carb. Tomorrow we will see how much the engine likes its new Q-jet really opened up. Removing all the EFI wiring certainly cleaned up the engine bay a good bit. And since the new carb is correct for the TA it fits nicely. Before/after pics:

[blue71ta]

looks much better!

One small tip: the stud on the throttle arm is facing the wrong direction; should be on the inboard side so your cable doesn't bow out like that. Otherwise, looks great. Love the Admiralty Blue cars.

[Greg Reid]

Yeah, it just doesn't even look right with the EFI. Looks great now.

[PontGuy]

Not so sure I would say it looks great, but much better than before. Once I get through all the debugging I'll replace the Performer and really clean it all up.

I'll reverse the stud if that is the way it is supposed to go, but I still need to order a throttle bracket for the manifold to line it up properly. Right now I am using an aftermarket universal bracket that I found in one of my old dirt-car racing toolboxes.

Just got back from a real road test. The car is much more drivable with the carb but my Lemans would still run circles around it. And there are are all sorts of aggravating little issues. So lots of work still to do.

[pontiacstogo]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

but at least I avoided the flatbed.

Oh that's just mean

[PontGuy]

I was pretty proud of my carb swap. Its been a long, long time since I did that sort of thing on the side of the road.

But just to make you feel better, my Lemans quit on me about 10 years ago (long before it was restored) and it went home in disgrace on a flatbed. It turned out to be a broken rubber fuel hose connected to the gas tank pickup.

[PontGuy]

Been hanging around the TAC forum since there are more TA resources over there, but seems to be better general Pontiac expertise here. Anyway, slowly been working my way through the little issues.

Got the A/C controls working right now- took a while to figure out but two of the vacuum tubes to the damper actuators were reversed. Discovered that the MSD distributor was only being fed 9.5V because it was wired with the original harness with the ballast resistor wire. Took care of that too. Also got the PS pump lined up properly- the little bolt spacer that is supposed to go on the front of the pump was on the rear, and the rear spacer was missing so I had to make one up. Will put new matching belts on it this morning. The belts that were mounted were both the same width so the PS belt rode deeper in the groove. I learned long ago that this causes squealing and slippage.

Still plenty of similar issues to resolve. Spending some money but other than the fuel system not all that much- its mostly been a matter of debugging and resolving mechanical/electrical problems caused by things not being put together correctly.

I definitely need to do some engine work though. It runs smooth but I am having to pull back on the timing and it runs out of steam early- the cam is not matched well for the compression with the 5C-4 heads.

The car is "one of a kind", numbers-matching, very complete, and the paint, interior and cosmetic details are really well done. But I want it to run better and will need to get into the engine eventually. Since the engine was recently rebuilt I could just throw a better cam into it and upgrade the intake and exhaust system. Or at the other extreme I could get the heads ported/polished by SD or Kauffman, install a roller cam setup and make big power while keeping the stock look under the hood. Or do something in-between. Still very undecided on my goals and the approach to take. Only thing for sure is I want to keep the original numbers-matching engine in it.

Money not being a huge concern, what would you guys do? Is this car worth more just running "right", or with internal engine mods to get it to 450+ HP?

[Formulabruce]

I would
1. Get the correct "pink wire" for the fuse box to Dist. and run the 12 volts to a 1974 HEI. Seeing an original car with a MSD box just spoils it all, and its not needed for 99% of applications. you want to drive it or mess with chips in the MSD, or have to hook it up to a lap top and screw with a design that doesnt need that unless your racing..
2. As you are figuring out the engine is probably overbuilt with lots of money not needed for what you want. Keep the cr at 9 or under and it will be a very nice engine and run at correct temps.
3. Many people after opening their wallets to aftermarket stuff, 15-20 years later want "their car back" and the original parts are gone, and it costs more than the mods to get it so its a nice driver.... The factory Pontiac engineers were not dummies!!

[PontGuy]

The MSD distributor is driving a stock coil, so at least it doesn't have the box. But the distributor needed to get full 12V to operate properly. Personally I like points

Yes money was thrown at the engine but not in the right places. I finally got the timing pulled back far enough to keep it from pinging- 31 deg all in. This engine is definitely supporting Cliff's strong stand on not using an XE268 in a 455 with compression. But that said, it finally drives quite nicely now that I have the fuel system, spark and timing sorted out. A lot of folks would be satisfied as-is. But I know that at a minimum a proper cam, exhaust system and factory intake would wake it up a bunch. Just not so sure how far I want to go with it.

Next weekend its back to wiring. I need to pull the instrument panel and find out where the inside-vent switch is bypassed. And hook up the dash courtesy lights. I also have a wide-band to install, and an oil pressure and temp gauge. The oil and temp gauges may not stay in the car long-term but I want accurate readings as I work through the engine. Having a wide-band in the Lemans has spoiled me and that will stay no matter what.

[Formulabruce]

I run the XE268 cam with STOCK 1972 CR and it works extremely well, has plenty of vacuum and idles with a lop, but runs like real fuel injection ( 1977 Q jet built by member Shaker455 to Cliffs specs, he also recurved my HEI) Of course it may NOT be good at 10:1... or installed wrong...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F1-...bRXwNNMl6Gjnag

[PontGuy]

Hey that sounds just like my car

I do like the sound, and there is plenty of vacuum. Glad to hear it is working well for you. Its all about the combo, isn't it.

I think that if my heads were original the cam would work a whole lot better. But I am having to pull out too much timing to keep it from pinging and that is hurting the power. There's no way to know the deck height without pulling the heads. And the numbers I've seen for the 5C-4 heads are all over the place (Wallace lists them at 93 cc's). But the resulting cranking compression is right at 180 psi so the engine is obviously not lacking CR.

The carb is great- outstanding throttle response and the secondaries come in smooth as silk. Gotta love Cliff's work. I got so lucky finding it for sale and getting it so cheap, and without the long wait.

[PontGuy]

Figured I'd share a pic showing progress on my car.

I got the 72 factory intake under the carb this week. While I had the V/C's off I checked the lift on the cam lobes- yup matches up perfectly with an XE268 on both intake and exhaust lobes. So now 100% sure that is what is in it, just like the records show.

The new 94Amp alternator holds 14V+ even at idle with everything on, all of the dash controls and instruments now work properly, and my new aftermarket gauges are telling me that the A/F, water temp, and oil pressure are all good. I finally have the engine running right, and as far as I can tell 100% reliable!

The car is at a buddy's shop today getting new motor mounts- the engine has a bit of a lean to it and I don't trust the mounts that are in there. Hoping that new mounts will fix the lean and if not that we can figure out the cause. I may get him to help with the new manifolds and exhaust system as well (next big step in the journey). I did the exhaust in the Lemans myself but remember that it was mighty painful laying on my back for days.