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taff2 · 03-19-2019, 07:52 AM

I'm a fan of water/meth charge cooling- a couple of us use basic AIS kits (now called ProMeth), one jet into each compressor housing and another in the hat really helps to cool the charge down. Another way to ensure a larger margin of safety with your tune is to add a percentage of Toluene to your pump fuel, you can basically make a C16 race fuel for pennies compared to buying race gas. We all use it over here as race gas is incredibly costly-about $30 a gallon. Been using it for 15 years myself.

Tom Vaught · 03-19-2019, 10:28 AM

Toluene really works but you need to be very careful with breathing the fumes.
Gale Banks mentioned the Toluene mix deal back in 1979 time period during a presentation. Even then he said be careful with the stuff. (Basically is Paint Thinner). What percentage do you use with your fuels, taff2?

Tom V.

TransAm 474 · 03-19-2019, 05:19 PM

That sounds interesting.... What ratio do you use to mix with gas? Example: how much would you mix in with 16 gallon of pump gas? Roughly, what octane would result from mixing it with the 91 octane?

Thanks

TransAm 474 · 03-19-2019, 05:30 PM

Well... after doing a search, it seems that the mix ratio would be about 1 gallon of Toluene for every 4 gallon of pump gas, so it seems it would take 4 gallons of Toluene mixed with 16 gallon of pump fuel, and octane would be equivalent to C16. That is very interesting, and almost sounds too easy Lol, as long as the proper safety precautions are taken of coarse... Rubber gloves.... Mix outside in fresh air and so on....

Tom Vaught · 03-19-2019, 07:51 PM

I would wear a Professional Filtered Can type mask, even if I was outside during the gas tank filling. NASTY STUFF.

A Group of Holley Technicians all contracted Cancer in later years in life from breathing some of the cleaning fluids used in carb cleaning. Toluene is just as bad as the stuff they were exposed to.

Tom V.

taff2 · 03-20-2019, 07:23 PM

I use a 20% mix - 1 litre of Toluene to 4 litres of cheap pump fuel- and this is a C16 equivalent. Yes, I mix it outside and wear gloves, as Tom said it is nasty stuff but it is in all pump gas in smaller quantities and in all high octane race gas too. And in some paint thinners, marker pens, aerosols etc etc. With it you can increase boost and/or timing, and it likes a bit of charge air heat (like C16 does), so it works good in non-intercooled set ups.

TransAm 474 · 03-20-2019, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taff2

I use a 20% mix - 1 litre of Toluene to 4 litres of cheap pump fuel- and this is a C16 equivalent. Yes, I mix it outside and wear gloves, as Tom said it is nasty stuff but it is in all pump gas in smaller quantities and in all high octane race gas too. And in some paint thinners, marker pens, aerosols etc etc. With it you can increase boost and/or timing, and it likes a bit of charge air heat (like C16 does), so it works good in non-intercooled set ups.

Thanks taff, so the way you mix would be almost equivalent to 1 US Quart per 1 US Gallon of gas, or 1 US Gallon of Toluene to every 4 US Gallon of pump gas? Does it harm o2 sensors or anything else?

Tom Vaught · 03-20-2019, 10:48 PM

You are thinking 25% with 1 in 4 ratio. Taff2 suggested 1 in 5 or a 20% mix ratio.
One gallon of Toluene to 5 gallons of Cheap Pump fuel. I have been told that going 1 to 4 does not buy you much more. 20 gallon tank you buy 4 cans of Toluene.

1 in 5 for a 20 gallon tank you are buying an extra can you reallym do not need in the mix.
Use that saved money to buy a good breathing filter outfit.

Tom V.

TransAm 474 · 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

You are thinking 25% with 1 in 4 ratio. Taff2 suggested 1 in 5 or a 20% mix ratio.
One gallon of Toluene to 5 gallons of Cheap Pump fuel. I have been told that going 1 to 4 does not buy you much more. 20 gallon tank you buy 4 cans of Toluene.

1 in 5 for a 20 gallon tank you are buying an extra can you reallym do not need in the mix.
Use that saved money to buy a good breathing filter outfit.

Tom V.

That makes complete sense Tom, Thank You... My car has a 21 gallon tank, so for a full tank of "mixed" gas, I could do 18 gallons of pump gas, plus 3 gallons of Toluene, and this mixture would come out at 16.7%, is my math correct?

TransAm 474 · 01:45 AM

Also, I need help understanding how this comes out to a C16 equivalent fuel like mentioned above when mixed at 20%. I'm by no means questioning anyone's expertise, I just need help understanding it. I used the octane calculator over on Serious Solutions website, and it shows that Toluene is 114 octane. I entered 1 gallon of Toluene and 5 gallons of 91 octane pump gas into the calculator, and it comes up with a new octane of 94.83 for the 6 gallon of mixture. I thought C16 was like 118 Octane or something like that? Am I not doing something correctly?

Tom Vaught · 03-21-2019, 10:31 AM

Math is correct.

C-16 Motor Octane Number is 116
C-16 Research Octane Number is 120
C-16 (R+M/2) = 118

This is VP Racing Fuel.

Post up a link to the calculator.

Tom V.

TransAm 474 · 03-21-2019, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Math is correct.

C-16 Motor Octane Number is 116
C-16 Research Octane Number is 120
C-16 (R+M/2) = 118

This is VP Racing Fuel.

Post up a link to the calculator.

Tom V.

Thanks Tom, here is a link to the Octane Calculator...

http://www.serioussolutions.com/evo/octcalc.htm

Tom Vaught · 03-21-2019, 05:24 PM

Looks like less than ONE OCTANE NUMBER DIFFERENCE with the 4 to 1 mix vs the 5 to 1 mix.

Tom V.

TransAm 474 · 03-21-2019, 06:50 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure it would be worth the extra cost to run Toluene after seeing a 20% mix only raises the octane of 91 octane pump gas about 3.8 points....

Tom Vaught · 03-21-2019, 08:09 PM

Fuels are a lot better vs what was out there in the early 80s and people had to bandaid the fuel octane numbers. I would PM Taff2 and get some real world data from him on his pontiac and what fuels he has available.

Tom V.

taff2 · 03-22-2019, 07:21 AM

Forget the octane numbers when using Toluene, it just works! The place I originally bought my Toluene from used it to manufacture race fuel for the formula 1 Rally championship cars, and Formula 1 used it back in the '80's to enable them to make 1000hp from just 1.5 litre engines, with the multi million dollar budgets they had they could have used ANY chemical available, they choose Toluene.
I initially used a fuel hydrometer to come up with the 20% mix ratio- I kept adding Toluene to ordinary pump fuel until the specific gravity matched that of C16. Toluene also has a higher BTU figure than almost any other fuel, so there is a power increase right there. We actually tested a 20% Toluene mix against C16 race gas on a BBC blower altered and the car was quicker with the Toluene mix. Try it, it won't harm anything, you'll be amazed at the difference.
ps, you may not need a 20% mix at your power level, up to around 15 psi of boost we have had success with 10 & 15% mixes, high compression n/a engines like 10% mixes (around 13-1). My son also uses a 5% mix in his 4 stroke dirt bikes and throttle response is much sharper throughout the rpm range (these engines rev to 14,000 and have comp. ratios around 13-1)

JSPONT · 03-22-2019, 07:55 AM

Taff2 does it have any affect on air/fuel ratio?

TransAm 474 · 03-22-2019, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taff2

Forget the octane numbers when using Toluene, it just works! The place I originally bought my Toluene from used it to manufacture race fuel for the formula 1 Rally championship cars, and Formula 1 used it back in the '80's to enable them to make 1000hp from just 1.5 litre engines, with the multi million dollar budgets they had they could have used ANY chemical available, they choose Toluene.
I initially used a fuel hydrometer to come up with the 20% mix ratio- I kept adding Toluene to ordinary pump fuel until the specific gravity matched that of C16. Toluene also has a higher BTU figure than almost any other fuel, so there is a power increase right there. We actually tested a 20% Toluene mix against C16 race gas on a BBC blower altered and the car was quicker with the Toluene mix. Try it, it won't harm anything, you'll be amazed at the difference.
ps, you may not need a 20% mix at your power level, up to around 15 psi of boost we have had success with 10 & 15% mixes, high compression n/a engines like 10% mixes (around 13-1). My son also uses a 5% mix in his 4 stroke dirt bikes and throttle response is much sharper throughout the rpm range (these engines rev to 14,000 and have comp. ratios around 13-1)

Awesome, Thank You taff.... What method do you use to mix it? Do you mix it in fuel jugs? Do you just mix it as you are fueling the vehichle? Thanks!

taff2 · 03-22-2019, 05:27 PM

The air to fuel ratio is the same with Toluene added, the only difference you may notice is that the engine will take slightly longer to run smooth from cold start up (just like C16). Depending on the ambient temperature where you live that is.
I use steel 20 litre Jerry cans for my race fuel and put 4 litres of Toluene in each can, then add another 16 litres of pump fuel to each can on my way to the track. You could mix it when you fuel up the car if you start with an empty tank, to get the best out of Toluene its best to mix it accurately so that you can log your results. If you start with an unknown amount of pump fuel in your vehicle tank then you will have a diluted Toluene mixture and no way to know exactly what your pump gas to Toluene ratio is.
It works good in modern vehicles too, the knock sensor will pull less timing out as it won't be detecting as much detonation or pinking.

TransAm 474 · 03-23-2019, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taff2

The air to fuel ratio is the same with Toluene added, the only difference you may notice is that the engine will take slightly longer to run smooth from cold start up (just like C16). Depending on the ambient temperature where you live that is.
I use steel 20 litre Jerry cans for my race fuel and put 4 litres of Toluene in each can, then add another 16 litres of pump fuel to each can on my way to the track. You could mix it when you fuel up the car if you start with an empty tank, to get the best out of Toluene its best to mix it accurately so that you can log your results. If you start with an unknown amount of pump fuel in your vehicle tank then you will have a diluted Toluene mixture and no way to know exactly what your pump gas to Toluene ratio is.
It works good in modern vehicles too, the knock sensor will pull less timing out as it won't be detecting as much detonation or pinking.

Thank You very much, It is much appreciated!

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