[Steve Barcak]

I have long disagreed with the thought that Pontiacs need more head bolts/studs based on the fact that 392 based HEMIs in my class run as quick as 5.60s at over 260 mph blown and on Nitro buzzing 11,000 rpm or even a bit above that.
They accomplish this year after year and they do it reliably with , you guessed it, 10 head studs.
This is not an isolated case with one guy with one engine but, dozens of engines/cars and teams. Again, this has worked year after year, decade after decade.
They use copper head gaskets with o-rings and retainer grooves and do not have issues related to head sealing.
Nothing stresses head gasket sealing more than a combo of boost/nitro/heat and crazy rpm as these early Hemis see every time they run.
Now, there is some validity concerning the heat area of the center exh ports and there are different ways to compensate for it as some have done.
Food for thought.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

What I understand after researching the internet the past couple of weeks is a 1/2" arp2000 or ARP custom age 625 will yield more clamping power then a 8740 9/16" stud without the drilling and taping for bigger holes, also they won't stretch as much. Now the bad news.........the price. Any special order part (no matter what it is) will cost more but in this case the more that you order the price comes down drastically, so basically we need the Pontiac High Performance community (KRE, AP, Butler, ETC.) to get on board. There is a demand, specially if the price is right. Just my opinion.


GTO George

How "bad" is the news on the price? I had to custom size my 9/16" head studs with ARP over the phone, piecing together a stud kit going by the length of stud required for each hole in my application. The price worked out to be a little more than double what a standard 1/2" Pontiac studd kit goes for.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

I have long disagreed with the thought that Pontiacs need more head bolts/studs based on the fact that 392 based HEMIs in my class run as quick as 5.60s at over 260 mph blown and on Nitro buzzing 11,000 rpm or even a bit above that.
They accomplish this year after year and they do it reliably with , you guessed it, 10 head studs.
This is not an isolated case with one guy with one engine but, dozens of engines/cars and teams. Again, this has worked year after year, decade after decade.
They use copper head gaskets with o-rings and retainer grooves and do not have issues related to head sealing.
Nothing stresses head gasket sealing more than a combo of boost/nitro/heat and crazy rpm as these early Hemis see every time they run.
Now, there is some validity concerning the heat area of the center exh ports and there are different ways to compensate for it as some have done.
Food for thought.

\What size bolt do they use? I'm having my IA2 drilled for 9/16" bolts as well. That was the main reason I decided to use a copper head gasket. The sales guys were telling me they have been using copper/oring gaskets for a long time in hemi's making more power than I will. I forgot to ask what head bolts they use.

[GTOGEORGE]

Brain
The thing is everyone has a different head, they use different length head studs. Tigers, HP's E-heads, etc. The price I got for one set of ARP2000 was so outrageous that I said NO. Thats where AP....KRE.....Butler....Etc. come in They can buy far more sets then we can......so the price drops drastically. Look at Summit and see what a set of ARP2000 go for, the price is about $250-$450 a set. Any engine that is boosted or running Nitrous that is built buy these Pontiac Hi-Po shops should come standard with these studs.........see the more set that are ordered or bought brings the price down.

Yes Steve the Pontiac heads lifts under boost, try making 20-60 passes a year without taking your heads off then you will see.


George

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Brain
The thing is everyone has a different head, they use different length head studs. Tigers, HP's E-heads, etc. The price I got for one set of ARP2000 was so outrageous that I said NO. Thats where AP....KRE.....Butler....Etc. come in They can buy far more sets then we can......so the price drops drastically. Look at Summit and see what a set of ARP2000 go for, the price is about $250-$450 a set. Any engine that is boosted or running Nitrous that is built buy these Pontiac Hi-Po shops should come standard with these studs.........see the more set that are ordered or bought brings the price down.

Yes Steve the Pontiac heads lifts under boost, try making 20-60 passes a year without taking your heads off then you will see.


George

I hear ya.

They quoted me a price over the phone of just over $1300 for a set of 9/16" to fit the E-head. Basically their E-head kit they already make, but in 9/16". Told them I couldn't sit still for that, so I thought, why not measure the length of the studs I need and see what they have that they already make in 9/16" for other makes. Did some mixing and matching and came up with a complete set. I'll have to check the receipt at home but I think it came in just under $400.

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

\What size bolt do they use? I'm having my IA2 drilled for 9/16" bolts as well. That was the main reason I decided to use a copper head gasket. The sales guys were telling me they have been using copper/oring gaskets for a long time in hemi's making more power than I will. I forgot to ask what head bolts they use.

They use 9/16" studs.

as far as the comment- "Yes Steve the Pontiac heads lifts under boost, try making 20-60 passes a year without taking your heads off then you will see. "

That comment is worth a chuckle. No, I will not try to do that and no one else does either at that power level. No one makes that kind of power without servicing their motor. Leaving a high powered engine together that long is foolish and naive at best. This is not bracket racing and I am surprised you would make a comment like that.

Many racers think because they have a billet crank or fancy this or fancy that means they can make dozens or hundreds of passes without teardown and inspection. I just shake my head. High powered engines need to be serviced at proper intervals or the engines life is greatly reduced. The mere thought of trying to make 60 passes on a high pwered engine like mine is nuts, even 20 por 30 passes without a teardown is foolish.

[GTOGEORGE]

Steve,
I completely agree with you it's like trying to compare apple to oranges........ right?

As for 9/16" studs a ARP2000 1/2" stud will have more clamping force then a 9/16" 8740...............no need to re-drill and re-tap everything (making it a white elephant). Hey why not both, 9/16" made out of ARP2000 material or ARP custom age 625!


GTO George

[Brian Baker]

Wasn't aware of the ARP-2000 studs when I had AP machine my block for 9/16" studs. As for those Hemi's on nitro' still being able to keep the lid on, how many of them make more than a few passes before they pull the heads for inspection? Some of those racers that run on the west coast where Steve is are pulling the engines apart after every pass just like the pro's.

[bad69bird]

I can get ARP New Age Custom 625 stuff for $700-$750 plus shipping. I wouldn't bother with the ARP 2000. Yes it is better than what we all currently have, but for a little bit more you can have the best.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Wasn't aware of the ARP-2000 studs when I had AP machine my block for 9/16" studs. As for those Hemi's on nitro' still being able to keep the lid on, how many of them make more than a few passes before they pull the heads for inspection? Some of those racers that run on the west coast where Steve is are pulling the engines apart after every pass just like the pro's.

Brian
What head gasket are you using? I had a SCE cut me a custom copper gasket with no water holes and 9/16" holes for the studs. I spoke to ARP today and then recommend the 8740 studs and torque to 160 ft/lbs. Thats kind of scary not knowing what the head will do when you put that much load on it. I'm concerned about crushing the head or deforming at those numbers. I cant imagine what the 2000 or the 625 bolts could be torqued at?

If the head doesnt allow the pressure to stay even what do we gain? Do we even know if the edlebrock head will handle it? Maybe I'm over thinking it, but wouldnt the head deform easier than the block deck? I know thats one reason we use H/G's, but the gasket will have uneven loading if the head deforms.

Maybe thats part of the difference hemi's holding the seal better.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by bad69bird

I can get ARP New Age Custom 625 stuff for $700-$750 plus shipping. I wouldn't bother with the ARP 2000. Yes it is better than what we all currently have, but for a little bit more you can have the best.

Is that what you used? If it would help save the head gasket more runs, it would probably pay for themselves over a year of racing. Buying new gaskets isnt cheap.....

What boost level are you at?

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

Brian
What head gasket are you using? I had a SCE cut me a custom copper gasket with no water holes and 9/16" holes for the studs. I spoke to ARP today and then recommend the 8740 studs and torque to 160 ft/lbs. Thats kind of scary not knowing what the head will do when you put that much load on it. I'm concerned about crushing the head or deforming at those numbers. I cant imagine what the 2000 or the 625 bolts could be torqued at?

If the head doesnt allow the pressure to stay even what do we gain? Do we even know if the edlebrock head will handle it? Maybe I'm over thinking it, but wouldnt the head deform easier than the block deck? I know thats one reason we use H/G's, but the gasket will have uneven loading if the head deforms.

Maybe thats part of the difference hemi's holding the seal better.

I've got Cometics on there for now. I haven't fired the engine yet, but after talking with Jack Gaydosh about his successes with Cometics over a copper/O-ring deal, I thought I would give them a try. Not only is it a dry deck, it's a dry block...no need for coolant running alcohol in my application. I ordered the gaskets through Rob from the board here (419-560-1004).

[taff2]

The way I look at it with these new material studs is at what torque figures do you start distorting or pulling the threads from the block? I used to torque my ARP headbolts to 130 ft lbs but noticed after about 5 or 6 uses that the bolts were stiff going into the block threads, I had to 'clean' the block threads with a tap. I know most of you guys are using aftermarket blocks made from better materials than the original blocks,but there must still be a point when too much torque on the studs is going to pull the threads?
I've approached this in a different way with my turbo motor based around a '59 factory block and iron heads, I spotfaced the heads bolt hole pads to a larger diameter and made up some 1-1/8" diameter x 1/4" thick hardened steel washers to spread the load applied by the ARP nut onto the head. The engine is also dry decked,with both the head and block cooling holes drilled,tapped and fitted with steel plugs to give the decks a bit more strength. I've also enlarged the head bolt holes to 9/16" but kept the studs at 1/2", the ARP studs are a pretty tight fit in the heads and I feel that when the heads get really hot (especially around the centre exhaust port area)that there might be some side loading on some of the studs which may cause the deck to pull or distort in a way that it wasn't designed to. The way I have it now is that the block dowels do all the locating and the studs just provide a direct linear clamping force.
I've also reverse cooled the engine,keeping the heads/gaskets cooler should result in less distortion to the decks in my opinion,as well as lowering the tendency to detonate.
I couldn't bring myself to pay $700-$800 for 20 bolts ,I don't care what they are made of!

[GTOGEORGE]

If you want to play with the BIG BOYS you got to Pay like the BIG BOYS!
$700 for studs shouldn't be a big deal if it helps/solves a problem. Cheaper then buying new head gaskets all the time..................if it works.


GTO George

[Gach]

GTOGEORGE: aren't you useing the Cometic gaskets ? Are you having problems
with them sealing after so many runs.

[GTOGEORGE]

I have copper & o-rings (I never liked o-rings).................my heads have been on my engine for 3 years, no problems (finally the middle started to leak some). I'm only running 7-8 lbs. of boost (8.20's-8.40's) I want to step up on the boost finally (10-15 lbs.) and maybe stop a problem before it starts. I think better studs are the way to go, Pontiac's must move forward.

George

[Brian Baker]

How many passes in 3 years, George? That's a better gauge to how your head gaskets are holding up. My Cometics have been on for a like amount of time, and I haven't had a lick of trouble out of them...but then again, they have zero run time on them.

[GTOGEORGE]

Brian,
I understand what you are saying.............I would have to guess maybe 80-95 passes. Not a whole lot, just can't make it out racing like I use to.............Family, Job, etc.

George

[bad69bird]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

$700 for studs shouldn't be a big deal if it helps/solves a problem. Cheaper then buying new head gaskets all the time..................if it works.


GTO George

I agree George. I will probably be doing an upgrade over the winter. I've spent waaaaaaaaaay more than $700 on head gaskets in one year when I had the e-heads.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Brian,
I understand what you are saying.............I would have to guess maybe 80-95 passes. Not a whole lot, just can't make it out racing like I use to.............Family, Job, etc.

George

I think 80 passes on a roots blown race engine is satisfactory performance from the head gasket.