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#21
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Here's the rundown on a '68 Olds 4-4-2 convertible I completed in June 2007. It was not a frame-off but very close to it - we had to lift the back part of the body off of the frame 3-4 inches to install new fuel lines - did this by loosening the frame-to-body bolts and then snugging them down again after the fuel lines were in place. I'm not a paint or body person, nor am I a mechanic. But I did get to work side-by-side with a mechanic that I would consider to be one of the best, and in his fully equipped shop. I learned a lot from him and it allowed me to do a lot of the work (especially the dirty work) myself. This car is not a trailer queen (i.e., perfect concourse), but it is in the upper tier of restorations.
Body work and paint: $15K. This included completely replacing the driver side quarter, removing rust at the bottom edge of the trunk and fabricating new metal to replicate original, and replacing some rust in the passenger side wheel opening, along with prep and paint. Paint was PPG with a clear-coat finish. Mechanical: $17K. This included rebuilding the original engine, transmission, rear end, and front suspension, and replacing the gas tank, as well as installation of all the parts. Parts: $10K. This included procuring original parts with date codes that complemented the build date of the car, that were not with the project, such as the starter, carburetor, alternator, distributor, coil, voltage regulator, radiator shroud, radiator, new door and rear side panels, repair of factory gauges and tach, new tires, and so forth. Unassigned value: Tons of my time cleaning and painting parts and brackets, painting the underneath of the car, making my own gas tank pad. I also had access to tools such as a buffer, bead blaster, solvent tank, someone who could weld, and was extremely thankful for all of that - it saved a lot of money. End Result: The car recently (July 2011) won "Best of Class" at the 2001 Olds Nationals in Reno, in its first national meet, which I understand is pretty rare. We can talk about judging all day long and how they do it. From my perspective, they knocked off some points for frivolous items but then missed things that I thought I would get gigged for. In the end, it was a wash. And, in any case, the end result told me that this car did indeed have an authentic, top notch restoration. This show was 4 years and about 1600 miles after we completed the car's restoration. Total Sum: $42K plus lots of my time. Hope this gives you an idea of the cost of what I consider a first class restoration. I've heard stories of this type of restoration costing as much as $20K more than what I spent. Accordingly, $20K seems definitely on the low side to me for what I interpret what you say is going to be done. If you go with that restorer, I'd surely keep a very close eye on what is being done to your car to ensure you are getting what you want. Hope this helps. Randy C. |
#22
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You have 15K in the body and 17K in mechanicals plus another 10K in misc parts for your car. Like Baron mentioned, he could have done the paint and body work for close to half or a heavy third less of what you spent with a one man shop that has lower overhead or minimal overhead than maybe your guy. Thats not saying your guy is better than Baron so it justifies the extra $$$ spent. There are many qualified people who could do that work for alot less and maybe even better, and remember the original question clearly stated ALL MATERIALS AND PARTS WOULD BE COVERED by the the owner not the shop. So depending on what paint and supplies were used, you could clearly knock another $1000-$1500 out of your 15k for paint materials. What about sheet metal? Whatever you spent in that can come out of your 15K also. Now that 15K could be down in the 12K or less range. Same thing applies for the 17K in mechanicals. How much was spent in machine work, engine, trans, differential parts, gas lines, tank, etc etc. When its all said and done, I bet you come in around or even under that 20K mark on true labor without any parts in that calculation.
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74 GTO Bracket/Street car and another 74 for the wifey to race with! 70 GTO 400, 4 spd, #'s matching and a little to nice for me to own. Friendship is like peeing your pants..everyone can see it but only you can feel the warmth! |
#23
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If it is the guy in Wa. I know, he takes a lot of short cuts and the car comes out a really nice driver.
To a novice it looks like a concourse resto frame off, to an expert, why did you put your hand on just about every piece and not do it right? Really it comes to quality and that is never cheap! 10k to 15k for body-paint for quality is just the start. |
#24
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I don't want to get long winded or step on any toes, but here is how it can be accomplished.
As we all know there is a certain amount of parts cleaning. bead blasting etc. that can be done by a semi skilled "laborer" for a cost about of 1/3-1/5 of shop hourly charge. Of course this depends on what part of the country you are in, and if you can find hard working locals/immigrants with the skill sets who want to work. And secondly, a shop doing volume is going to be able to get a considerable discount on all reproduction/replacement parts, yet have the right to charge the customer the full retail, so there could be a considerable profit made there also. A shop may also charge a finder fee on original parts that are purchased to assist the restoration. The third and important factor is shop overhead. If the equipment, building etc are all owned and been in the business for a long time, that keeps the overhead way down, and likewise shop rates can be kept low. Fourthly- if all the in house subs are paid by the job, and not hourly, the restoration shop can control internal costs significantly. Restoration work like many other professions often have very skilled craftsmen, who to their own demise are poor business men. The final word- always charge what the market will bear, or quickly go out of business. So, after saying all that, a $20K labor charge may actually equate to a $80K level restoration that will cost you $60K after parts, materials etc. |
#25
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Last edited by Forrest; 09-02-2011 at 09:52 AM. |
#26
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Been following along since thread started and noticed an ad in Autabuy for a 1970 GTO in blue which states it had a complete restoration yet the selling price is $30,000. I'm wondering if it is old resto that was done in the 1990s when it was still possible to do that much work affordably. After reading these comments, I'm thinking it had to be an older resto or the car was actually very clean and just had what we'd call thorough detailing or maybe a sympathetic restoration. IE replace what looks worn out and what needs to be done otherwise, leave it alone. Just two more ways it could've been done all in for $20,000.
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#27
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I have the ultimate solution to the high cost of resto's:
I don't keep any bills! What you don't remember can't eat your guts up!
__________________
My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops) 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop) 1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop) 1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon 1969 Executive 4dr Sedan 1969 Bonnie Cvt 1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them) 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them) 1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model) |
#28
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Keep them out of reach of the wifey. She'll remember, they always remember
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#29
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Two months is really fast.. Yes, that would take a lot of guys working on the car to make that kind of time. He must have access to cheap labor (Ie semi skilled at $12/hour)
There always seems to be a hold up when a key part is missing, and time is spent waiting for it. Maybe he has figured a solution to this. I would have to see one of the finished products to pass my final judgement. Or... this is just all BS. |
#30
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There must be a good reason he's not using the $20k resto shop for his other Judges. Remind him of that fact.
Forrest you know what is takes to restore these cars, you've done enough of them & had threads on many that you've restored here on the forums.......they show your skill and dedication to your work. There's no need to let him fill out your quoted prices in the estimate. If he thinks $20k in labor gets a quality frame off resto on a 70 Judge then tell him he should have no trouble finding someone else to do it & wish him luck. |
#31
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Yes he has done several frame offs in a period of 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 but he cuts a lot of corners.
He does most of the work himself, pretty amazing, but it you know what to look for it falls apart, compared to full blown resto. But his prices are very reasonable, so you get a good value compared to the price. |
#32
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#33
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If the guy is doing this for cash, in his own private pole barn, no EPA looking over his shoulder, and not filing income taxes. Maybe he has insurance through his wife, maybe another full time job. No debt, no overhead. This is $20,000 bring home, probably $30,000-$40,000 gross by an EPA regulated, honest shop. $30,000-$40,000 for labor only, no materials, parts, mechanical repairs or chasing down parts.
Plus, maybe he's a hack. |
#34
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Not a hack, he is really fast, does it at his house.
Has done at least 7 Judges frame off. Cuts a lot corners and to novice it looks awesome, but if you took detailed pictures and posted, this board would pick it apart.But.................. He doesn't ask stupid prices for his work or cars, so in the end it's a good deal. It's not a screaming bargain like this guy is pretending to be getting. Probally in the beginning he thought so and later he moved on because he figured it out. Think about it, he finds the one guy who is fast, cheap, reliable, with quality and moves on???????????????? Take fast, cheap, reliable and quality you can't get them all is resto I think if someone wanted to pay a quality price he would do a high quality resto. JMHO |
#35
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My paint guy works out of his house, has low low overhead, does what he says he will do, completes the job on time.
On a high end paint job he is about 1/3 less than a shop. Strip to bare metal, remove doors, deck lid, entire nose, do the jams, under the hood, inside the trunk, patch panels for fenders, fix wheel well where they beat the inner lip in for wider tires, 1/4 panel patch, reassemble to a show quality align and fit, cut and buff to show quality finish 10k. PPG product, three coats of clear, excellent metal worker with very little bondo. Right now he is working on my 73 SD, more metal work, trunk floor pan, replace both 1/4's, rear tail panel, rust around front and rear windows, one frame rail, rebush hinges, 15k. same procedure. I furnish the chrome, polishing for the trim, any parts which incudes glass, hinges, 1/4 panels, tail panel, frame rail, trunk floor, deck lid, pay for the car to stripped Fast, relaible, quality, reasonable, but not cheap! Last edited by richard sargent; 09-02-2011 at 07:41 PM. |
#36
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Didn't Jason from Pa. advertise to all of us $20,000 labor plus parts for a frame off #1 car?
Forrest if you do quotes/bids and NOT per hour just keep sending the money projects I'd like to talk to you sometime about what it would take to get my car done. I'm thinking about it and it deserves to come off the frame (I believe it did back in 1995 as well) and be totally done up ... right! My cell is 908-208-7778 and my email is phildilernia@yahoo.com Whenever you have the time ...
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1970 GTO Convertible 455 Ram Air M-21, Atoll/Blue/Black, Hood Tach, 3:31 12-Bolt Posi, A/C, Console 1966 Grand Prix 421 Tripower 4spd, Marina Turquoise/Turquoise, a/c, console, posi, reverb. pa, pb, ps, remote mirror, mats 2010 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic, 6spd Hemi, Detonator Yellow, black stripe, black leather |
#37
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Maybe consider how many hours it takes to do a car.
For a #1 expect 1000-2000 hr labor at $50 an hour expect $50-$100K Parts engine-$3K includes machine work Paint package $3-5k Glass $1k Interior $2k includes all the doo dads like knobs and new seat belts weatherstripping Chassis $3k bushings ball joints tie rods tires brakes Body parts-new sheetmetal, vinyl top, bumpers to chrome varies by car Stainless restoration expect a grand for a basic car. AC add a grand pot metal varies by car rare options-cha ching you do the math At $20k someone's cutting corners somewhere. All depends on what you think #1 is. |
#38
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But he supposedly fell off a wagon - or jumped on a wagon - whatever is right term for taking a few guys to the cleaners. He was doing good things for a while though. Damnd shame about it going to he// like that. Most cars - typical cars with some damage and some rust and some missing/destroyed key items - if you got a 20k labor package - by the time all is said and done sitting on new tires - you'll be around 40k at minimum. Some closer to 60k. How much did the car cost you to buy it ? Whats it worth now ? Old tired looking drivers with fresh engines are making a comeback ! |
#39
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And as someone else has posted, It makes a lot of difference in what is considered a #1 car. What most folks consider #1, I consider a #2 or 2-. As you know, it takes times to get the fit of all the body parts as they should be. They were not very good from the factory. If you left them like that on a restored car, it would be totally unacceptable. Same with paint. Original quality paint doesn't cut it on a restored car. A car out of the paint booth that too the untrained eye looks perfect still needs 40 or more hours of sanding and buffing to get right. Here is the costs of my last project. I bought it and it had recently underwent a frame off restoration, but not of the quality that I desired. You can follow what we did to the car here:http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=551411. No $ for paint, No $ for internal engine work, no $ for interior or trim work. I paid $10 hour for a helper. Total added restoration costs, including parts and supplies, $11,500.00. It is NOT cheap to work on these cars.!
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LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET THE HE!! OUT OF THE WAY!!! HONEST JERRY'S SPEED AND EQUIPMENT
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#40
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BINGO!!!
We average @ 2000 man/hrs. per car...usually @ $35k in parts and paint job. Difference between a #1 and a #2 is @ DOUBLE!!!
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"The great obstacle to discovery is not ignorance...but the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstein "Gas is STILL your cheapest thrill!" Your opinion of me is none of my business. |
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