[Fishin2Deep4U]

Originally Posted by Ollie

Ollie, what is the 4-1 wheel for? I always thought we wanted a higher numerically toothed wheel to trigger with.

The 4-1 trigger wheel is for cam position sensor. Which is needed for True sequential ignition.
The cop coils can be operated in waisted spark mode using an EDIS module.

Interesting. I assumed a single tooth arrangement would work fine. Is this to increase resolution? Sorry for the questions, just trying to wrap my mind around it.

Dave

[Ollie]

Yes. 4-1 increase resolution. If one is good 4 is better.
Have you been reading the MegaSquirt manual? If not I will send you the link later this afternoon, I am at school right now.
Don't be sorry for asking questions. That is what these forums are for.
PS When you get yours running you will owe me a fishing trip. LOL

[TheMonkey]

i use a single tooth wheel on cam. there is a huge window to get the signal and sync the cam. all the ignition timing comes from crank, cam signal just confirms which cycle you are on. but i'm always learning new stuff, so maybe there's a good reason to have better resolution.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Agreed, just trying to understand the "why" of the thing. Not saying anything is right or wrong by a long shot!

I was going to copy the MS half round style close window, far window. Since the MS only really needs to know if #1 is on the intake or exhaust stroke, correct? The missing tooth on the crank should be able to start the injection cycle from there.

Now, does MS have the ability to start on the exhaust stroke of #1? I know it will on the intake stroke. This would allow for injection within the first 360 degrees of rotation.

Dave

[TheMonkey]

Sorry I don't recall the logic in the sync or how I set it up. I did dig deep in the details, just can't recall.

But I do think that MSExtra syncs cam first then fires sequential. Some code I used for testing Sequencer using B&G code on a BMW fired first in wasted then sync'd to sequential. I liked the B&G method better because you can fire within 360, but my car fires immediately and it definitely does not feel like any delay. Perhaps MSExtra does fire within 360 every time and I just don't recall details.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Pulled the trigger on the first part of the project. MS3, MS3X and relay panel.

Held off of the wiring components until I build and test the ecu.

Still looking for a deal on the throttle body, manifold, injectors, ect.

Dave

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Okay, just thought a quick update was in order.

Got the MS3 and MS3X in the mail. So, I got started Friday night. I had the bulk of the build done by mid morning. There were a few questions I had before final completion. Namely, setup for HEI and LS coils. Turns out, it's basically the same expect for some adjusting of the pots. This will be handy for when I switch from my HEI to COP. No, I don't have enough confidence trying to get it started with all new parts.

Also, I had what I thought to be a solder bridge. Turns out it was and I had fixed it. Then I spent another hour trying to figure out why I was still showing continuity. Turns out, there was the proper amount of resistance, but I was relying on the audible alarm on the meter. Bad choice! So, after wasting some time, the build was done.

I got a chance to load the firmware last night. This allowed me to see that the stim I had built and tested on a buddies MS1, was in fact working on mine. I failed to opt for the JimStim. I am using the 2.2. So I cannot "see" the injector and spark outputs on the stim. This is of little worry as I planned on using LEDs to run on the output side for testing and sequencing work. Cheap an I can put them in a pattern that looks like the engine layout. I'll use different color LEDs for the injectors and coils. This will allow overlay and allow me to see that I am in fact injecting fuel prior to spark.

I feel pretty good about myself having never soldered any electronics components and having it work. I do need to give the board another thorough cleaning. But overall, I am very happy so far.

Now the hard part.

I need to decide on the fuel system. Although I am leaning to the later style module with my own baffle and returnless design. I have no idea what fuel line to use, but just may buy some prebent lines. And it looks like 3/8" would work to over 500HP. I may go to 1/2" if it makes more sense.

And I have to get the rest of the parts. Still looking hard for anything good, used, but the search has been fruitless. I may have to buy everything new. I am hoping to find someone that is willing to give me a "package" price out there.

So, some progress. Lot's of ways to go!

Dave

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Has anyone considered a 5th gen module? It's compressed height is somewhere around 5-1/2" and uncompressed is 7-1/4" best I can measure.

It could easily be adapted into a tank. All I would need is a box to sink the top of the module into. A reinforcing ring on the bottom with some studs and another heavy ring on top should seal it just fine. I can tun all that out pretty quick.

Hell, a cookie pan would work for the box on top. And since I need a tank anyway, this might be an easy project. No baffles to worry about really. Might be an easy mod vs, buying on of the other tank solutions.

Ollie, take a look, it might fit your tank better as well.

Dave

[TheSilverBuick]

I don't make any real horespower (~500HP?), but I'm pretty cheap and running fuel injection on a Buick 455. I'd add a turbo but then I would drive over my crankshaft. I use the surge tank method for fueling. Low pressure pump into a tall and narrow ~1 quart canister with the gas tank feed, fuel rail return and the gas tank return lines in the top, and the feed to the high pressure EFI pump at the bottom. Works great and have ran the car down repeatly to 1 gallon or so in the stock gas tank with no noticiable effects.

I just installed an MS3 in my car last week (upgraded from an MSII running since 2009, ~50,000 miles), and this is what I did.

Wires for the MSIII and MS3X board through the firewall.


Soldered a connector together from DIYautotune.com.


Made my sequential EFI harness that runs in the air gap in the intake.



Installed.


New connector, plus my old relay board.


The MSIII.


For the cam sensor I modified an HEI distributor. I'm 99% sure this will work, but I have not for fact checked, but I do have the car running in the batch fire method it was with the MSII at the moment.

First I wanted only one tooth on the pickup coil.


Ground all the teeth off except one off the pickup coil and reluctor.


Rolled the engine back three teeth before the missing tooth, approximately 30*. My Ford Escort trigger wheel adapted to a Buick crank pulley and home made sensor holder.


With the crank 30* before the missing tooth, I lined up the pickup coil and reluctor tooth, also known as the Alabama HEI.


The MegaSquirt 3 isn't registering any sync errors, but I haven't specifically looked at the cam tooth logger. Actually, I'm thinking of turning on the sequential tonight to see how it runs, and am heading out on a 1,500 mile road trip tomorrow with the car.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Any pics of your surge tank setup?

I don't think I have the room to physically locate the thing, but I may have to take a better look.

Dave

[Ollie]

Dave, happy to hear you got the MSIII ans got it assembled.
I am not familiar with the 5th gen fuel pump module. the fuel tank in a 79 TA is deep enough for the 4 gen fuel pump module to work.
Got over to the Pro-Turing.com and the ls1tech.com web site and do a search in the fuel injection forums, using the key words fuel pump module.
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum.php

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum.php

The silver Buick,
Good photos of your MS install.
keep us informed about the road trip. Interested to hear how the MS performed.
Have heard about removing all but one tooth from the star wheel and pickup coil to use as a cam position sensor.
couple of questions. how did you anchor the pickup coil and lock out the mechanical advance?

[Fishin2Deep4U]

I have seen the 4th gen modules. I wonder if I cut it down if that would work. It is cheaper to source and I could simply cut the ring off the top of a tank to make the install faster.

The beauty of the fifth gen design is the lower height and single line output. It does need a 4th gen regulator or a pwm controller to handle fuel pressure.


My buddy is running a locked HEI with the single tooth. I just milled off the other teeth for a clean look, but no one ever sees it.

I also turned the top half of the distributor off. The advance is bolted, so it's adjustable for phasing. I also turned a hat for the whole thing to hide the assy. Thought the cap was a bit ugly.

Next phase is to turn the base down to a priming tool. Then we'll simply weld a half moon style to the top of the shaft. A cap with an integral VR mount will finish it off. Dead simple and reliable. Also, not real noticeable when painted.

My biggest concern is the fuel tank. Once I get that, the rest should be easier I hope!

Dave

[TheSilverBuick]

My surge tank might make the homeland security people cringe, but it's simply a 2" dia. iron pipe 6" long with end caps, then I drilled and tapped NPT fittings too it. Crudely simple. I would like to mount it back by the main gas tank, but currently I have it bolted to the firewall using a pipe clamp from the same aisle I got the pipe from. I actually have a stock Stage1 mechanical fuel pump feeding the surge tank unimpeded with a 3/8th line. Based on what my fuel injectors flow and what the mechanical pump is rated at for flow, it would take around 10 minutes of WOT to empty the surge tank, and that assumes 85+% duty cycle on the injectors, which on my setup they only get to around 65%. More than adequate for anything really. Even Bonneville doesn't have ten minute WOT moments at this HP level.

I simply drilled and roll pinned the mechanical advance. I've ran the megasquirts tach signal off the pickup coil in the distributor for around 40,000 miles with out ever actually bolting it down to anything. The advance mechanism's resistance has been enough to keep it from vibrating around, and believe me I checked enough times over the years that my timing was spot on, and it never drifted. So that's how it sits now too.

Looks like I'm not going to take the Skylark after all. I had planned on taking my Thunderbird but it was having issues that I luckily resolved yesterday. The Skylark has been dead nuts reliable. Put 4,000 miles on it last September, driving to Drag Week, participating, and driving home, and them more driving. And of course I've been driving it EFI'd since late 2009. The Thunderbird is my first step into MegaSquirt EFI in 2008 and it's pretty crude, but also utilizes the same surge can/pipe method. Simple 640cfm 2bbl TBI replacing the 600cfm Autoleak.

[TheMonkey]

i think the surge tank is a great idea. stock fuel tank, can use mechanical stock fuel pump to feed the surge, and is i think is safer than just a baffle. i have a ton of time into modifying my tank, if i did it again, would probably go surge route. i know some people have converted large fuel filters into a surge tank. if i recall, matt cramer did that and might have it documented still. it's the big fuel filter that looks like an external oil filter. bolts to the frame rail and has NPT fittings to it already. here's matt's write up: http://madscientistmatt.blogspot.com...-overkill.html

i would probably try to build a surge that fed from stock fuel pump, and then put an in-tank walbro pump into the surge tank.

[krisr]

I'm going to put one of these on my car shortly and just feed it with a Carter from the main tank.

http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-in...k-p-21527.html

[Fishin2Deep4U]

I like the idea of using the stock pump to fill a can.

Trying to visualize the line routing, I can see where a low pressure electric pump feeding the surge tank would make sense.

And then would you use a conventional high pressure (4 bar) pump inside the surge tank? Or just feed it from an outlet?

I like the idea, just would be concerned about 2 separate pumps and the ability to get parts on the road.

The appeal of the module route is parts availability, but suffer from the need for fabrication and high cost.

I probably should just pick one and go with it. Although, it's a tougher choice now.

Dave

[TheSilverBuick]

These pictures will probably get me banned, LOL!

Here is how I ran the set up for a good while to prove that the system worked. As I said, I've since moved the surge tank to the firewall. But this easily shows how it works. Three lines into the top; 1)From the fuel tank (via low pressure pump, this case mechanical), 2)From the fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rails, 3) A return back to the gas tank. The bottom one feeds the high pressure pump so awesomely strapped to the frame rail, lol.


This is what I did for the fuel return line. Took out the sending unit, drilled a slightly larger than 3/8th hole in it, put a 90* fitting through with a backing nut. Using gasoline resistant RTV to seal it up and act as a loctite. Taken right from the DIYautotune.com's project Nova.




Hot fuel at the top, cool fuel at the bottom, and with the surge canister very unlikely to have aeration issues.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

There are "non module" in tank pump/float assemblies on earlier efi gm cars/trucks that mount with the same lock ring setup used on carbed cars for fuel pick up and sending unit. Check your ring size and go visit your favorite used part places. Very easy to modify the pump height/float arm on those. Let me know if you want a few pics of what I'm describing.

Dont get too concerned about the pump being good or if TBI setup as there are other pumps new that will meet your fuel pressure/flow requirements that can easily be fitted. The float arm can also be shaped as needed. Pumps for these are usually much cheaper than the module type. Many of the module types are hard to get only a pump for it or very hard to change out just the pump. (without breaking something)

You can of course baffle your tank internally if you want instead of adding a sump.

On the high power end Aeromotive pumps can be installed in-tank and they also sell a really nice, well baffled fuel cell with your choice of A1000 or Eliminator pumps already installed.

I converted our 83 S10 Blazer 4x4 carbed,distributor to an SFI with in tank pump.
I switched to a larger tank from a newer S10 Blazer and it had a 55 pound pump
with the same lock ring and Oring as early GMs.
It also has the same 0-90 float.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Scored a set of LS truck coils today.

Still undecided on the fuel system as theres lots to think about. But I am really leaning towards the fifth gen pump. I can soon a mounting ring for it work put of a piece of pipe. And I'll probably skip the factory hold down ring in favor of something far simpler. But if I have some extra time, I may go for the gusto. BTW, Vaporworx has both the ring mounted on a stainless plate and available separately. I figured mild steel would be easier to deal with than stainless however.

And finally, really on the fence about the intake choice. I like the idea of the edelbrock victor and it's angled injectors. I don't like that I am forced to use pico injectors. I am still trying to determine what if any injectors are a direct swap and would do well at around 60psi. LS3 maybe?

So, I need to order my tank and get this process started.

Dave

[Ollie]

Nice score on the truck coils. Did you get the coil wire harness and mounting brackets too?
Be aware there are differences between the truck coils and the car coils. The harness plug on the truck coil is smaller than the car coil. The mounting tag on the coils are different too.
The attached photo of the coils show the difference, the truck coil is on the right.
Link to the E bay seller where I bought a set of 62lb pico injectors. The pico injectors are also called EV1.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siemens-Deka...item5193916e04