[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Since the Butlers and Travis Q (as well as Marty Palbylin, in 1996) run high boost (that is 45 to 75 on a typical engine
and the Tractor Pull boys with the diesels are over 100 psi of boost with their stuff, it is not worth my time to explain the difference between a 88 or 91 mm Turbocharger and a 8-71 roots blowers capabilities.

You have a large engine, you have a poor efficiency supercharger (50-55% typically) and you don't spin the thing very high rpm so you make 11 psi of boost pressure and run low 8s. Your supercharger will live for years racing at those boost levels. (unless you do something stupid).

Charlie66 could run 38 psi of boost pressure on a 400 cid engine and make 300 more hp with his small engine vs your 525 cid engine. Which is 125 cubic inches bigger just by adding more boost pressure vs what you run).

Marty could run 6.96 with old school diesel turbos in 1996. It is now 23 years later and you are happy running low 8s and making a lot of passes with your combination. Marty was in the mid 40s on Boost Pressure if I remember correctly.

Mahovitz with a 281 CID engine and high boost 75 psi range runs in the 5s with a door car in the quarter mile. Your Roots system on his 281 cid engine would be a POS.

So read some books on Turbochargers George and then post up and I will try to answer more of your questions on the difference between the two boosting devices. If I explained a Turbo Map to you, then you would understand that a turbocharger (TO BE HIGHLY EFFICIENT AT MOVING THE AIR - must to be over 70% efficient) and the impeller has to spin 75,000+ rpm vs your Roots deal spinning 7500 supercharger rpm.

Tom V.

Sounds like your double talking.....that’s ok you just answered my question! LOL!


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

For some people when they don't understand, it is always double talk. LOL!
Typical answer but expected.

How about this George.

Since you are now a Turbo Expert as well as a Roots Expert,
What is the difference in these three compressor maps?

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Tom, I asked a question and you answered it by not being able to answer it.........let it go.
Back on topic!

GTO George

[GTOGEORGE]

Ok I just can’t let it go..........what does Butler, Marty P and different size turbos have to do with me and making almost the same HP with only 11 lbs of boost compared to the 39 lbs of boost and 1,500 hp you said Charlie will make at 400 cubes?
......because that whole post made NO sense at all!

GTO George

[73 TRANSAM]

The bigger the turbo would make more power per psi. Charlies turbo is tiny compare to ur blower. I made almost 1265 hp at 15 psi and my turbo was on the smaller size which is a 91.5 mm with a 1550 hp rating. I need a 98 mm for my 482 and that is rated at 18-1900 hp. But I want to drive it on the street so I wanted a small one. If I wanted to make a big power on lower boost, I just need to put a 106 mm on it and I believe it will match ur combo but that is just an example. But the turbo shines when u up the boost! Not a lot of hp loss driving it unlike the blower combo. Not arguing but stating the facts. Look at Daddy Dave at SO! He said he will never put a turbo on his car and look at his combo now. Twin turbo just like everyone else. The only one left is Megalodon and just a few guys and few nitrous cars. But turbo is the way to go for big power based on the cars running it. But what do I know. Converting to Turbo is just hard on a Pontiac due to the head design exhaust we have. This is why a lot of people are converting to LS.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by 73 TRANSAM

TLook at Daddy Dave at SO! He said he will never put a turbo on his car and look at his combo now. Twin turbo just like everyone else. The only one left is Megalodon and just a few guys and few nitrous cars. But turbo is the way to go for big power based on the cars running it. But what do I know. Converting to Turbo is just hard on a Pontiac due to the head design exhaust we have. This is why a lot of people are converting to LS.

Daddy Dave switched to twin turbos because he needed more HP and could not fit a BIGGER pro charger on it (no front end room if there was he would have seeped with the procharger) he didn't want to get a different car so he had no choice but to go to twin turbos.
As for Pontiacs head design we have the Warp 6 and DCI's RA5 heads!


GTO George

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by 73 TRANSAM

The bigger the turbo would make more power per psi. Charlies turbo is tiny compare to ur blower. I made almost 1265 hp at 15 psi and my turbo was on the smaller size which is a 91.5 mm with a 1550 hp rating. I need a 98 mm for my 482 and that is rated at 18-1900 hp. But I want to drive it on the street so I wanted a small one. If I wanted to make a big power on lower boost, I just need to put a 106 mm on it and I believe it will match ur combo but that is just an example. But the turbo shines when u up the boost! Not a lot of hp loss driving it unlike the blower combo.

With my small blower set up (compared to a 12-71 or 14-71) all I can make (boost wise) is 11.5 lbs and I have to spin it almost 30% over (which is a lot for a roots blower of that size) to do that, even with that I'm making upwards of 1,400HP. So boost wise I'm maxed out...........i need a BIGGER blower. I couldn't imagine what my engine would make with a 12 or 14-71 on it......well over 2,200HP! Remember its not the size of the blower or how much boost can make its what you can do with what you have.....ive been working on my combo for a while! A lot of people just turn up the boost as oppose to working on a certain combo....not always the best thing to do.


GTO George

[73 TRANSAM]

If the Procharger was the best combo out there. Do you think people will be running turbos? Also not everyone has unlimited funds when it comes to heads. You don't need all this special heads to make power with turbos. I would love to have the warp 6 heads on my combo but I don't have unlimited funds. Big Chief and Butler are well over 2800 hp with eheads. It cannot be that bad but I know u can do better with better heads? Thanks.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by 73 TRANSAM

If the Procharger was the best combo out there. Do you think people will be running turbos? Also not everyone has unlimited funds when it comes to heads. You don't need all this special heads to make power with turbos. I would love to have the warp 6 heads on my combo but I don't have unlimited funds. Big Chief and Butler are well over 2800 hp with eheads. It cannot be that bad but I know u can do better with better heads? Thanks.

I could make more hp with better heads just like a turbo would those 481x turbo engines don’t have e-heads on them, there’s a reason!
It’s pretty simple the better flowing head the more hp NA or PA!

[73 TRANSAM]

I respect your combo as u r going round after round with it. If it makes u happy and not breaking anything. That is the best combo especially if ur not setting the world on fire. U only need urself to be happy at the end of the day. Daddy Dave was breaking his Procharger every time he race before. U dont see turbo guys burning up their turbo on a pass do you? I'm sure Daddy Dave knows more than what hes telling us on the show.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by 73 TRANSAM

I respect your combo as u r going round after round with it. If it makes u happy and not breaking anything. That is the best combo especially if ur not setting the world on fire. U only need urself to be happy at the end of the day. Daddy Dave was breaking his Procharger every time he race before. U dont see turbo guys burning up their turbo on a pass do you? I'm sure Daddy Dave knows more than what hes telling us on the show.

I’m just repeated what he (daddy Dave) said if he had the front end room he would have stayed with a pro charger.


GTO George

[73 TRANSAM]

I saw that episode too. But he was having issues with the Procharger every time. I'm sure he realized that too! He went from Nitrous to Procharger to turbos. And looked at what Kyle Kelly said. I cant keep up with this twin turbo cars anymore. I'm sure he will convert soon if he wants to be on top!

[73 TRANSAM]

I wish I have unlimited funds just like them guys! I don't know whats their Day job but I'm sure it is not just coming from that!

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by 73 TRANSAM

I saw that episode too. But he was having issues with the Procharger every time. I'm sure he realized that too! He went from Nitrous to Procharger to turbos. And looked at what Kyle Kelly said. I cant keep up with this twin turbo cars anymore. I'm sure he will convert soon if he wants to be on top!

I’m not saying that turbos cant make a **** load of power, sometimes it’s better to fine tune a combo before turning up the boost you might be surprised.
As fo Kyle Kelley he might be getting some freebie stuff from Musi!

GTO George

[73 TRANSAM]

I hear u about fine tuning first. When we are the engine dyno, all I wanted was 1000 hp and that's it. First pull was 1080 at 5200 rpm with 20 plus boost with a 13.4 AFR as my wastegate wasn't bleeding enough boost. I also learned a lot of screwing around with the Blow thru carb based on my dyno experience with the help of my Good Friend Charlie!!! I wanted to turn up the boost on the last pull but I had some header leaks and didn't adjust the home made boost controller to make a difference in boost. I wanted to run 20 psi to see how much power it would have made but it still went to 15 psi on the last pull. My motor was on the dyno for almost a month with 50 plus pulls due to fuel pump issues and waste gate issues.

[charlie66]

The smaller ci motors need more psi to make the equivalent power to the larger ci motors. Thats all tom is trying to say.. My 198 ci motor made 750 hp with 35 psi. But theres more to it then that. Like compatibility. Having the right size turbine wheel vs the amount of exhaust gases that will be spinning it to effectively get the most out of the compressor wheel for a given cubic inch .. I started out with a 76mm compressor wheel matted with a 67mm turbine wheel . Then i realized at 35 psi is was
all done . All it did after 35 psi was make heat ! Same thing these blowers are known for. So basically after that, went with a smaller commpressor wheel of 68mm and a larger turbine wheel 70mm . Now i was able to make more power with a smaller turbo on the same motor. The biggest concern i see with this blower on the street is keeping the heat out of the intake. If you can do that you will be able to keep it togther with AFR and timing . So E85 will be a good idea as long as you can keep the heat out. If you cant, the e85 will not be enough and it will detonate..11to1 with a blower sounds like a stretch to me.. An intercooled turbo setup ive seen it done..

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by charlie66

The smaller ci motors need more psi to make the equivalent power to the larger ci motors. Thats all tom is trying to say.. My 198 ci motor made 750 hp with 35 psi. But theres more to it then that.

Wasting your breath Charlie, Can't help someone who knows it all.

Tom V.

ps Back on pistons and head gaskets.
Put the right pistons in your engine, sir, and run 9.0-9.2 compression ratio on the E-85 fuel
and you will be happy and the engine will give you a lot of enjoyment at lower boost levels..

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by charlie66

The smaller ci motors need more psi to make the equivalent power to the larger ci motors. Thats all tom is trying to say. But theres more to it then that. Like compatibility.

Thats also true with root blower engines. The smaller then engine the more boost you need to make up the difference in the cubes BUT without the rest of the parts to go along with more boost it won't be a happy engine.
What tom was trying to say was mumble jumble but it was getting late for him. lol!


GTO George

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by charlie66

The biggest concern i see with this blower on the street is keeping the heat out of the intake. If you can do that you will be able to keep it togther with AFR and timing . So E85 will be a good idea as long as you can keep the heat out. If you cant, the e85 will not be enough and it will detonate..11to1 with a blower sounds like a stretch to me.. An intercooled turbo setup ive seen it done..

Performer needs to run carbs (2 dominators) on his blower it would take care of the heat he might have in his entake or even blower that way the e-85 will cool everything! If he doesnt match the exhaust side.......headers........exhust pipes.....etc it won't matter any ways. Remember what you put in you need to get out....pretty simple.


GTO George

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Performer needs to run carbs (2 dominators) on his blower it would take care of the heat he might have in his entake or even blower that way the e-85 will cool everything! If he doesnt match the exhaust side.......headers........exhust pipes.....etc it won't matter any ways. Remember what you put in you need to get out....pretty simple.


GTO George

I never thought of it that way . Adding another carb to help with the intake cooling. Interesting..

I was wondering , has anyone ever tried putting a hat on a roots blowers carb with a intercooler and conected to it to see if it could draw through it ? If it could run maybe it would help it cool the air charge? lol.. If i had one id try it just to see... I would imagine that when those blades get spinning it would create a heck of a draw ..