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Old 12-03-2022, 11:13 AM
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Beat me to the reply
What Paul said.

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  #82  
Old 12-03-2022, 11:36 AM
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I think SM would need to change the casting so there was more metal at the throat/seat area so they can account for core shift. They could cnc the throat and seat and that would make for a pretty nice head IMO.

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  #83  
Old 12-03-2022, 12:28 PM
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I say flat out BS to the speedmaster listed exh flow number of 72 cfm@ .100” lift !!
If true then that 1.66” exh valve is flowing as much as the 2.11” intake valve, while having 25% less curtain area @ .100” lift.

It’s either produced by a mistake in the lift point used in the flow testing , or a back cut exh valve was used, or some of both.

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  #84  
Old 12-03-2022, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 25stevem View Post
I say flat out BS to the speedmaster listed exh flow number of 72 cfm@ .100” lift !!
If true then that 1.66” exh valve is flowing as much as the 2.11” intake valve, while having 25% less curtain area @ .100” lift.

It’s either produced by a mistake in the lift point used in the flow testing , or a back cut exh valve was used, or some of both.
Steve,
Not to say it is not BS.

But I have flow numbers from Edelbrock Performer RPM 60599 SF1020 Ram Air IV Exhaust Alum 2.11"/1.66" @ .100 71/69 which is 97.2% Exhaust/ Intake ratio.

I also have from someone for a SBC / L98 head 1.94"/1.50" @ .100 60/70 which is 116.7% Exhaust/ Intake ratio.

Stan

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  #85  
Old 12-03-2022, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
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Steve,
Not to say it is not BS.

But I have flow numbers from Edelbrock Performer RPM 60599 SF1020 Ram Air IV Exhaust Alum 2.11"/1.66" @ .100 71/69 which is 97.2% Exhaust/ Intake ratio.

I also have from someone for a SBC / L98 head 1.94"/1.50" @ .100 60/70 which is 116.7% Exhaust/ Intake ratio.

Stan
Stan, There is a Edelbrock set in Michigan that flow (aluminum head, from the oem) that are very close to your numbers.
First thing I learned is that there is always an exception to the "Rule".

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  #86  
Old 12-03-2022, 01:18 PM
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The correct fix is to correct the casting

  #87  
Old 12-03-2022, 01:30 PM
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The correct fix is to correct the casting
I believe the manufacturer called it good by including a note stating the valve seat may fall out if the head is ported.... That was a simpler fix.


Remember all the folks that got there panties wadded up over the core shift issues with the reproduction intake manifolds.... That was funny.

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  #88  
Old 12-03-2022, 02:17 PM
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I believe the manufacturer called it good by including a note stating the valve seat may fall out if the head is ported.... That was a simpler fix.


Remember all the folks that got there panties wadded up over the core shift issues with the reproduction intake manifolds.... That was funny.
With good reason. My post will be about the reproduction intake manifolds. Not going to discuss the above comment in any way
since I was involved directly in Chris C Tri-Power aluminum intakes.

A Bit of history:

Barry Grant did a Pontiac Tri-power intake many years ago.
A PY Member bought one. Posted pictures. A lot of issues with the casting.

Then Barry did a second run, better but still issues.

Finally Barry Grant did a third short run of the intakes. Pontiac 6-Shooter I believe it was called.
It was a very nice intake, I own one and had it further ported by Dave on the east coast.

Then we move to the Rochester Carb aluminum for the Tri-Power 66 engine.
PY's owner had a run made. I got one of the first intakes for testing on a flow bench.
Very nice finish and even flow thru the runners. Chris at PY did good.

Then the "Other Companies" started making knock-off intakes which were barely acceptable (with work) to "not going to work at all".
I did not see any bitching by the members when the Tri-Power clones were being sold by some of the people posting here.

So it is rare to get a part that fits and works well on a first run. Chris proved it could happen.

So now we have some "Edelbrock" head "clone" castings.

Obvious to me that the guys who sell the "E-version" aluminum heads would make a lot of posts on the subject.
(All negative, naturally), got to keep that "E-version" head paying the bills.

They probably sold the piss-poor Knock-off version of the Aluminum Tri-Power intakes too.

So it one case it is all business and in the other, all bashing, in my opinion.
But entertaining, never the less.

Tom V.

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  #89  
Old 12-03-2022, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
With good reason. My post will be about the reproduction intake manifolds. Not going to discuss the above comment in any way
since I was involved directly in Chris C Tri-Power aluminum intakes.

A Bit of history:

Barry Grant did a Pontiac Tri-power intake many years ago.
A PY Member bought one. Posted pictures. A lot of issues with the casting.

Then Barry did a second run, better but still issues.

Finally Barry Grant did a third short run of the intakes. Pontiac 6-Shooter
I believe it was called. It was a very nice intake, I own one and had it further ported by Dave on the east coast.

Then we move to the Rochester Carb aluminum for the Tri-power 66 engine.
PY's owner had a run made. I got one of the first intakes for testing on a flow bench. Very nice finish and even flow thru the runners. Chris at PY did good.

Then the "Other Companies" started making knock-off intakes which were barely acceptable (with work) to "not going to work at all".
I did not see any bitching by the members when the TriPower clones were
being sold by some of the people posting here.

So it is rare to get a part that fits and works well on a first run.
Chris proved it could happen.

So now we have some "Edelbrock" head clone castings.

Obvious to me that the guys who sell the "E-version" aluminum heads
would make a lot of posts on the subject. (All negative, naturally), got to keep that "E-version" head paying the bills.

They probably sold the Knock-off version of the Aluminum Tri-Power intakes too.

So it one case it is all business and in the other, all bashing, in my opinion.
But entertaining never the less.

Tom V.

Hi Tom, I remember all that. What do you feel is more of a concern, a valve seat falling out of a head or an intake port match that needs correcting?


Btw.... I'm on here trying to educate the consumers. In the past two years Edelbrock has not let us sell any heads but we have plenty of work to do without them.

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  #90  
Old 12-03-2022, 03:30 PM
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Thanks for the post Paul K.

I would say, based on your post above, that there is a chance that could happen.
Not sure as far as the "falling out of a head" part though.
Last time I looked when the valve was installed in the head the valve head was bigger vs the seat ID. And if the seat moved down in the head I would assume you would have some valve train noise, be it a solid cam, hydraulic roller, or a solid roller. The valve would still be trapped by the valve seat and vice-versa and the spring pressure would return the seat to the bottom of the pocket when the valve closed each time, right?
And make NOISE?

I try to describe how things actually work in an engine.

Sorry to hear that Edelbrock has not let you sell heads, but in order to sell heads you would have to have received heads, correct. I think when Vic, JR and Cami cashed out, all bets were basically off. Know nothing about the current company.

Unless you are hard of hearing, like me, or ignoring normal inspections of the engine, chassis, etc a person would notice the warning signs (before a valve seat fell out of a head) could actually happen.

Just saying. But there is always an exception I suppose with a head used in a race application. Lot better heads out there for a race application.

Tom V.

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  #91  
Old 12-03-2022, 03:57 PM
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Thanks for the post Paul K.

I would say, based on your post above, that there is a chance that could happen.
Not sure as far as the "falling out of a head" part though.
Last time I looked when the valve was installed in the head the valve head was bigger vs the seat ID. And if the seat moved down in the head I would assume you would have some valve train noise, be it a solid cam, hydraulic roller, or a solid roller. The valve would still be trapped by the valve seat and vice-versa and the spring pressure would return the seat to the bottom of the pocket when the valve closed each time, right?
And make NOISE?

I try to describe how things actually work in an engine.

Sorry to hear that Edelbrock has not let you sell heads, but in order to sell heads you would have to have received heads, correct. I think when Vic, JR and Cami cashed out, all bets were basically off. Know nothing about the current company.

Unless you are hard of hearing, like me, or ignoring normal inspections of the engine, chassis, etc a person would notice the warning signs (before a valve seat fell out of a head) could actually happen.

Just saying. But there is always an exception I suppose with a head used in a race application. Lot better heads out there for a race application.

Tom V.
I agree Tom. I think what's happened in the past is the seats have been opened up to a large bowl diameter in high RPM race engines using solid roller cams and bigger spring pressure. The seat fell out, was sliced in pieces by the valve and things went down hill from there. As far as the warning signs I agree. I always thought the same in regards to the 4500's with internal linkage. An awful lot of "safety plates" were sold that would prevent that linkage from falling into a running engine and causing damage. I always figured one would get a warning sign or two before that happened.

As far as Edelbrock goes, for a while I really wasn't sure if they would ever produce another Pontiac head. The good news is they will, I'm still not sure how the quality will be. I'm sure you heard as many rumors as I have so no point discussing them. But one I did hear from a trusted source was once they finally decided to move the entire operation to Olive Branch Missisppi they offered all the "key folks" a company paid relocation and not a single person accepted.

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Last edited by PAUL K; 12-03-2022 at 04:03 PM.
  #92  
Old 12-03-2022, 05:34 PM
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Olive Branch MS, would be a HUGE culture shock from living and working in the outskirts of LA, CA!. Not that it would be all bad, just very, very different. Cost of living would be about 30-40% less. Wonder if the move came with that kind of pay cut as well. BTT: I can see where a seat could come out of a race engine , twist a little and be chopped-up by the opening/closing valve. With open headers it would appear as a miss and could go from that to a catastrophe quickly. It's pretty awful when a hard seat is getting smashed to hell by a steel valve into a soft aluminum head. and aluminum piston. Allot of seats are made of powdered metal like almost all the Dura-Bond stuff. When they get loose and move out, if the valve hits it at an angle, they break like glass.

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  #93  
Old 12-03-2022, 05:43 PM
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I agree Tom. I think what's happened in the past is the seats have been opened up to a large bowl diameter in high RPM race engines using solid roller cams and bigger spring pressure. The seat fell out, was sliced in pieces by the valve and things went down hill from there. As far as the warning signs I agree. I always thought the same in regards to the 4500's with internal linkage. An awful lot of "safety plates" were sold that would prevent that linkage from falling into a running engine and causing damage. I always figured one would get a warning sign or two before that happened.

As far as Edelbrock goes, for a while I really wasn't sure if they would ever produce another Pontiac head. The good news is they will, I'm still not sure how the quality will be. I'm sure you heard as many rumors as I have so no point discussing them. But one I did hear from a trusted source was once they finally decided to move the entire operation to Olive Branch Missisppi they offered all the "key folks" a company paid relocation and not a single person accepted.
Agree, I would not want to move to Mississippi either.

As far as the Dominator internal linkage goes. I have never, in my lifetime, 70+ years seen a "as built by Holley" Dominator carb FAIL the linkage in that area. But if you are a racer and change the linkage cam to the other style and you are on your 1st "modified" Dominator carb, the issue is on you, not Holley.



Post by a very good friend in Oregon who goes by Yeti or Tuner on the boards.

"
1-to-1 throttles must be synchronized perfectly or there will be a problem with stumble and surge in the very small throttle opening range just above idle. Also, 1-to-1 requires more precision and attention to detail in tuning 4 or 8 idle circuits - and butterflies and T-slots - instead of only 2. Anybody who’s ever synchronized multiple Weber or SU carbs understands the importance of precision throttle linkage set-up.

Forty+ years ago the old 6214 and 6464 carbs had 1-to-1 linkage because they were the (perceived to be) ideal tunnel ram carbs and at the outset with the 6214 the intention was to be used on independent runner intakes like a set of Weber 48IDA’s.

I’ve used the 1-to-1 linkage with success but it requires great drama and patience to get the internal linkage perfectly set so turning the primary idle speed screw moves both primary and secondary equally and - more important - the off-idle range is perfectly symmetrical. That’s fine and dandy for about a month of street driving, after which the little bit of wear and settling in of all the moving parts, links, shafts, little roller wheels and such, causes the synchronization to get out of whack. 1-to-1 would work fine with symmetrical external linkage of the Enderle sort with turnbuckles which provide precision adjustment and easy maintenance.

On the other hand, in carb tuning there is nothing wrong with trying everything you can think of as long as you can easily go back if it doesn’t work out." (end of post by Yeti/Tuner)

I would recommend the Safety Plates for anyone who touched the Dominator Carbs internal linkage. The external linkage carb is a great set-up and should have been purchased anytime you feel the need to play with your carb's internal linkage. But people buy a swap meet Dominator and proceed to mess with it and then chit happens.

Tom V.

ps people found out when you go IR that you need MUCH BIGGER CARBS vs a 1150 Dominator on a IR set-up.


*

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  #94  
Old 12-04-2022, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Olive Branch MS, would be a HUGE culture shock from living and working in the outskirts of LA, CA!. Not that it would be all bad, just very, very different. Cost of living would be about 30-40% less. Wonder if the move came with that kind of pay cut as well. BTT: I can see where a seat could come out of a race engine , twist a little and be chopped-up by the opening/closing valve. With open headers it would appear as a miss and could go from that to a catastrophe quickly. It's pretty awful when a hard seat is getting smashed to hell by a steel valve into a soft aluminum head. and aluminum piston. Allot of seats are made of powdered metal like almost all the Dura-Bond stuff. When they get loose and move out, if the valve hits it at an angle, they break like glass.
I bet it came with a pay cut. In the 80s I was working at a mill that was building a new sawmill in Texas.
They offered jobs to those willing to move but at about a 40% pay cut.
One guy took it.
Anywhere its so hot and muggy you are sweating as soon as you get out of the shower, they can have it.

  #95  
Old 12-04-2022, 11:21 AM
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Any flow #s for the cnc ported sm

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  #96  
Old 12-04-2022, 04:17 PM
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I don’t know this guy but he has a pretty informative video about head flow. It’s chebby stuff but I’m sure the principals apply to most brand cylinder heads. It’s a 16 min vid but helps shine light on why cnc porting these heads may not improve flow without some other changes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eJi7drOyTmQ

I like his comment on how flow is impacted an inch before and and inch after intake valve.

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Old 12-05-2022, 04:49 AM
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T400 stuff showed up. The drums look nice. There are steels in the drums, kook like Kolene.
The center support got a nick on it during shipping. I could file-dress it but I will give them a call and get it swapped out. A little corrosion on it too.
Overall it all looks good. I will take it by a local transmission guy I know and let him check it all out.
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  #98  
Old 12-10-2022, 11:26 PM
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Default Speedmaster Heads

The set of heads I ordered during the Black Friday sale arrived today. I ordered the complete heads setup for Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam.

I have not taken them apart yet, but some things I noticed at first glance
1. Heads appear to be very clean with no shavings etc.
2. All the helicoil tangs are still intact on all holes where they are installed.
3. When placing straight edge across valve stems...the heights are all the same for intake valves, while the exhaust valves are lower, but the same height to each other.
4. The press fit plugs that are installed are installed at various depths.
5. Casting seems thin compared to my Edelbrock heads, so not sure how they can offer a CNC ported version. It will be interesting when people receive those versions.

I plan to gasket match and transition the ports a little better before bringing them into the machine shop to check them out. I will install the heads on my 557 block, 4.25 cast crank engine along with an SPC-8 cam. It will be going into a budget based 70 Firebird that is currently running it's original straight 6.

Let me know if you want any pictures etc. and I can post them up.

  #99  
Old 12-11-2022, 01:25 PM
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Exhaust valve are lower then intake valves. That not a good thing, that would mean different push rod lengths on exhaust vs intake. When you say pressed in plugs are you saying like pressed in freeze plugs. Any pictures thanks.

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Old 12-11-2022, 04:03 PM
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Exhaust valve are lower then intake valves. That not a good thing, that would mean different push rod lengths on exhaust vs intake. When you say pressed in plugs are you saying like pressed in freeze plugs. Any pictures thanks.
Even with the valve the same height due to differences between the intake and exhaust lobes on some cams I have seen the need for a different push rod length.

Stan

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