[SD455DJ]

We got a small group of TA's and a Formula to do a remembrance cruise of the canceled 2020 TA Nationals yesterday. We met at Dan's place and had a mini cruise through on the back roads (nice and twisty-turny) down to Gilmore's Car Museum at Hickory Corners, MI. We had ideal weather...partly cloudy with temps in the 60's early to mid-70's later. The roads were clean and dry for the 110 mile round trip. It didn't replace the Tipp City cruise and dinner at Harrison's by any means, but it was fun to go through the museum (highly recommended and takes several hours minimum) and stop at the Applebee's in Hastings, MI for dinner. We missed seeing the usual gang (Bentwheel Bob & Musclecar Dave, Norwood, Judge273, PureSD, LadyTATA, Paul F. & the Doug's, NoTime, and the rest) down in Dayton, not to mention the drive, but this eased the pain a little. It's been a strange summer without the great Pontiac events.

For those wondering, the Pure Stock Drags are still happening on Sept. 17, 18, & 19. See PSMCDR.com and or Facebook for more information for racing you car or coming out to watch.

Dennis

[keith k]

Cool. Been on my list to get out to the Gilmore museum this summer.
I had my TA out for an exercise run around Ann Arbor on Sunday - absolutely beautiful day.

[Norwood]

Wish we could have made it Dennis. Hopefully next year all this Is in our rear view mirror. PureSD, Judge 273 and myself tore up some backroads of Illinois as our own mini Natz. We let Sean bring the Hurst instead of one of his fine Trans Ams.

[SD455DJ]

Craig, good to hear you guys went out for a cruise to honor the canceled Nat's! The weekend weather in the Midwest was perfect...low 70's for us. The cars look great...even that Horst Cutlass (!).

Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Jonny - You must be referring to the Pure Stock Drags...yes, we get around 10-12 Canadians bringing cars and racing along with several dozen spectating every year. With the US/CDN border closed until Sept. 21st that puts an end to the Canadian invasion this year. They will all be sorely missed.

But, we are still racing anyways!

Dennis

[burd]

I say boycott the natz next year, pretty lame cancelling it.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by burd

I say boycott the natz next year, pretty lame cancelling it.

Welcome to my world. I've been boycotting it since they got rid of the drag racing portion of it.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Welcome to my world. I've been boycotting it since they got rid of the drag racing portion of it.

I am glad I attended when I did;
It being sprawled out on a grassy field outside of a busy city is in my opinion much more preferred over in an asphalt parking lot in a busy city.

I don't know if I'll ever attend again, but I will quite probably be back to the Pontiac Nationals - that show had it all!

I know there was a swap meet at the TA Nat's, but it must have been tiny, because I don't distinctly remember anything about it;
The racing, and huge swap meet at the Pontiac Nationals made it a much better, well rounded even in my opinion.

The Tipp City cruise was nice, and I should have maybe taken in a seminar (iirc there was one or two at the TA nats) but I remember when I attended the TA nats' that I was on a VERY tight budget so I couldn't afford to do much outside of walking the showgrounds.

[SD455DJ]

Larry & Jonny, I've been going to the TA Nat's only after it moved to the Dayton Marriott in the city at the University of Dayton campus (2010?). I missed out on the shows at the airport and the drag racing...too busy with raising a family in the 90's & 00's. The TA swap meet is a joke compared to Norwalk (Pontiac Nat's), which is the best Pontiac swap meet in the country IMHO. The drag racing would be fun, but it's just not in the organizers vocabulary...they don't get it. Paul Freze and Doug Kullancamp do get it and they were instrumental with getting concours judging at the show (the organizers didn't get that either, but finally allowed it if Paul & Doug did all the work for it). If drag racing was to be added to the event, Paul and Doug would probably organize that for the 12 or so guys that would be interested in racing. Quite frankly, I don't care about the show that much...it's all about the driving down and back and to Tipp City (love that town!).

Dennis

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Larry & Jonny, I've been going to the TA Nat's only after it moved to the Dayton Marriott in the city at the University of Dayton campus (2010?). I missed out on the shows at the airport and the drag racing...too busy with raising a family in the 90's & 00's. The TA swap meet is a joke compared to Norwalk (Pontiac Nat's), which is the best Pontiac swap meet in the country IMHO. The drag racing would be fun, but it's just not in the organizers vocabulary...they don't get it. Paul Freze and Doug Kullancamp do get it and they were instrumental with getting concours judging at the show (the organizers didn't get that either, but finally allowed it if Paul & Doug did all the work for it). If drag racing was to be added to the event, Paul and Doug would probably organize that for the 12 or so guys that would be interested in racing. Quite frankly, I don't care about the show that much...it's all about the driving down and back and to Tipp City (love that town!).

Dennis

It's very apparent to me Dennis that you "get it" I've never been about shows that much either. For me the enjoyment is actually driving the car back and forth, and the drag racing. Actually "enjoying" the car (what a concept, lol). That's a real car guy in my book.
I forget the ladies name that took over the TA Nats after her husband died. Sandy or Nancy or Susan or something like that, honestly she wasn't memorable enough to remember, lol. Anyway it was at that point she X'd the drag racing, She told me she simply wasn't interested, even after a few of us stepped up to the plate and offered to keep it going. She had a falling out with Bruce that traveled 4,000 miles round trip to put it on, and for me the TA Nats were just never the same since. While Bruce isn't always the easiest to get along with for some, I found that she was no walk in the park either (long story). So I washed my hands of the whole thing. There was a rather large group of us that simply quit going. I haven't been back since. I loved the Tipp City cruise, the racing on Saturday, and yes I did go back on Sunday for the show to hang out a bit, entered the car, but usually was on my way back home by 1pm or so to end the weekend, I don't care for spit and shine or the lawn chair nationals. Yes I drove my car back and forth from Cinci all 3 days, raced it too.
Always did the same thing for the Tri-power Nats or Pontiac Nats or what ever they are calling it these days. I'd drive the car up, race it all weekend and drive it home. Now that is definitely a show worth attending for anyone that hasn't gone, and Norwalk is a top notch track too. One of the best tracks I've ever been to throughout the Midwest.

Honestly though, it's been so long now, I don't miss the TA Nats at all. I've found plenty of other venues to attend that actually have things to do other than sit by the car.

[keith k]

At the strip at the TA Nats.... 2002 I think.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by keith k

At the strip at the TA Nats.... 2002 I think.

[burd]

They should move it to Norwalk. The new site sucks with the vendor area out in the back fourty.
And you bake on the black top, Norwalk is on the grass. Luckily Woodward still happened, I would have posted pics but the staff took down my post

[SD455DJ]

Larry & Keith, I did see this on their website and it's listed as a Thursday evening event??? I imagine Paul & Doug may have had something to do with this as they "get it" too (Doug Pulsekamp...I know I butchered your last name again...sorry!).

***Unofficial Trans Am Nationals event***
Test and Tune drag racing at Kil-Kare Speedway
1166 Dayton-Xenia Rd, Xenia, OH 45385
Drag Racing: 5:00PM—10:00PM

Yes, they don't want any liability issues attached to the main event I'm sure. Is the 'Bruce' you mentioned Fulper?

I see they moved to the Dayton Marriot in 2009, so that was my first year attending and again in 2014 to the current location in Fairfield. I still enjoy the premise of the event, but it's 95% a lawn chair show, but we make it fun for ourselves...even wrenching on our cars during the show sometimes just to get the organizer's all excited (lol).

Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Nice Keith K! What did she run?

Denis

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Larry & Keith, I did see this on their website and it's listed as a Thursday evening event??? I imagine Paul & Doug may have had something to do with this as they "get it" too (Doug Pulsekamp...I know I butchered your last name again...sorry!).

***Unofficial Trans Am Nationals event***
Test and Tune drag racing at Kil-Kare Speedway
1166 Dayton-Xenia Rd, Xenia, OH 45385
Drag Racing: 5:00PM—10:00PM

Yes, they don't want any liability issues attached to the main event I'm sure. Is the 'Bruce' you mentioned Fulper?

I see they moved to the Dayton Marriot in 2009, so that was my first year attending and again in 2014 to the current location in Fairfield. I still enjoy the premise of the event, but it's 95% a lawn chair show, but we make it fun for ourselves...even wrenching on our cars during the show sometimes just to get the organizer's all excited (lol).

Dennis

Any reason why they don't want any drag racing attached to the event? I never did get a real answer from Susan (if that's her name) back when several of us offered to carry the torch. There were several club members at the time, some of which I knew on a personal level, that wanted to see the drag racing continue. She just flat out hated it for some strange reason, she was never clear about it, but it's pretty simple really, if you don't like it, don't go, but it didn't change the fact that the racing was a very large draw to the whole event for many of us. The way it was done, you had a choice of attending the show on Saturday or attending the drag races. Many would just drive their cars over and watch the races, which was done by about 2pm or so, then go back to the show and/or do the Tipp City cruise that evening. It was a perfect schedule. Doing a Thursday evening event likely would have never worked for me anyway, getting off work and trying to drive from Cinci to Dayton by 5pm would be nearly impossible, then back to work on Friday.

It's a big reason why this event, like many others, would really benefit from just having the event at a drag strip like Norwalk. Your there all weekend with a show and race and swap all in one spot with no conflicting schedules. Just show up and pick your poison. Super Chevy is just one example that still does it this way. Our tri-5 Chevy car club started doing it that way back in the early 80's at Edgewater and still does to this day.

It is nice to hear that at least someone is trying to revive it though, albeit on Thursdays. Boggles me why it can't coincide with the event.

Anyway, Yes Bruce Fulper helped organize the drag racing. The date was perfect for the US Nationals at Indy the following weekend. He grew up in the area and knew the Kil Kare facility and track owners well, so he would bring his Pontiac from California and basically help run the event. He also brought along prizes, raffle drawings etc.... Giving away complete fresh built Pontiac engines, cylinder heads, custom camshafts ground to your combination and more. He spent a lot of money out of pocket to make it a pretty decent event that kept growing until Susan canned it. I won 2 camshafts from him, Dad won a camshaft as well, was runner up a couple years too. Always had a good time. While Bruce can be a little full of himself he really never was all that hard to get along with. I only saw him clash with other people that thought too much of themselves and those 2 recipes usually don't mix, lol. I always got along with him just fine, always nice to me, sat down with me and discussed a lot of things to make the car go faster, and spec'd 2 camshafts for me that worked quite well. Look past the ego and he's just another Pontiac guy that loves racing. Watched him help several in the pits with tuning issues, never complained, he just loves doing it. It's rare to find someone passionate enough about the sport that is willing to go through what he did to make an event fun. The people that didn't appreciate it missed out on something good while it lasted.

It's kind of similar with Pontiac Heaven here in AZ. While I don't have a problem with Steve and find him friendly, some may not like Steve and I've heard all the stories as to why some won't attend. Unfortunately they let feelings and/or politics get in the way of enjoying what could be a great event. What they don't realize is that Steve is the only person (for years now) that has stepped up to the plate to put on something like this. It's the only game in town, once a year. If you want to see Muscle Cars run on Saturday, and Pontiacs on Sunday, this is it, all there is. The rest of the year there is nothing at the track that caters to our hobby. Some people just need to get over themselves, get out and enjoy the cars, and make the event something you can enjoy yourself and not worry so much about who puts it on. Or step up to the plate and do it better, which is not an easy task. Dennis, you know as much or more than anybody what it takes to put on a successful event like this. My hats off to ya for doing it successfully for so many years now. I only wish we had more of it, and more people like yourself passionate about the sport willing to step up and put on events like this.. And we need more people to get off the couch, get the cars off the pedestal, and go have a little fun with them.

[unruhjonny]

/\ thanks for this post.
I have heard so many stories about "flopper" ripping off people, or flatly not delivering on promoises, I for one have been irritated to see him in any group;
He seems to me at least to be more of a charecture to avoid than tolerate, and being of the firm opinion that people can be good/likeable of they so choose, it is nice on occasion to read a better take of him.
I still wouldn't steer anyone his way because of the horror stories, but it's still nice to know that he, at least in some point in time was seen as an upstanding guy...

Originally Posted by Formulajones

... And we need more people to get off the couch, get the cars off the pedestal, and go have a little fun with them.

I could not possibly agree with a post any more.

If people are driving and enjoying $100k+ new cars, why can't people drive/enjoy valuable classics as well. Every one of those Hellcat's out there is or was a $70k-$80k car when new;
The difference between most of the new pricey cars, and a similar valued clssic is that the new car is a depreciating asset, while the classic isn't.

I hope my car gets to the level of some here, but know this - I will drive mine.

[Formulajones]

Keeping in mind, people that know me on a personal level will tell you I'm the easiest guy to get along with that you'll ever meet. So generally I get a long with most everyone I've ever met despite personality differences. I'm not one to judge, I just want to have a good time.

I don't pay much mind to what issues Bruce has had with other people in the past. I base my opinion of him on my own dealings with him and I can honestly say he's done everything he said he would do, helped with a lot, and delivered parts that were promised. Anyone that goes through the trouble to put on an event like this, and travel 4,000 miles to do it deserves some recognition. However I haven't seen him in years now so I can't speak of anything recent. What I heard the most from people is they can't stand his ego and he isn't afraid to speak his mind. Usually that comes from someone that has a bit of their own ego and usually that stuff clashes among individuals. So you kind of have to take that for what it is.

I personally have no problem with Bruce, and if he were to ever put on another racing event for muscle cars or Pontiacs, I would most certainly attend and show my support for events like this regardless of an individuals personality that puts it on. I simply like cars and events of this nature that much. Enough to throw personalities aside. Besides you still meet a lot of great people with the same interest and the comradery is great.

And yes, We need to see more people running these muscle cars and having fun. To do that we need more drag events catered to the classic muscle car. The very few that are out there, need the support to keep going as well.

[SD455DJ]

Sue Emmel was her name and she hasn't been involved for several years with the TA Nat's...retired? Paul and Doug are trying to bring back the drag racing like it was done before on Saturday. Dan and I are behind them if they need more support. Three years ago Dan & I were rebuilding a Q-jet from a friends '71 455HO Formula (on the Saturday show fields) that was having idling and tip-in issues. It was funny the crowd that developed to see what we were doing and then setting the initial and total timing. It makes you wonder if there were hands-on clinics for power tuning your TA, or hiring a local tuning shops portable chassis dyno would go over. Certainly not with the lawn chair wax-on/wax-off set, but there are a lot of folks that like to see others working on their cars to enhance performance...actually, maybe more than we think there would be.

We drive nice Firebirds to the show and quite a few people can't believe we take such a risk. We always tell them that we don't want to regret wishing we drove and enjoyed the cars we love on our dying beds...I know I would...that's why I got rid of the trailer!

Dennis

Dennis

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Sue Emmel was her name and she hasn't been involved for several years with the TA Nat's...retired? Paul and Doug are trying to bring back the drag racing like it was done before on Saturday. Dan and I are behind them if they need more support. Three years ago Dan & I were rebuilding a Q-jet from a friends '71 455HO Formula (on the Saturday show fields) that was having idling and tip-in issues. It was funny the crowd that developed to see what we were doing and then setting the initial and total timing. It makes you wonder if there were hands-on clinics for power tuning your TA, or hiring a local tuning shops portable chassis dyno would go over. Certainly not with the lawn chair wax-on/wax-off set, but there are a lot of folks that like to see others working on their cars to enhance performance...actually, maybe more than we think there would be.

We drive nice Firebirds to the show and quite a few people can't believe we take such a risk. We always tell them that we don't want to regret wishing we drove and enjoyed the cars we love on our dying beds...I know I would...that's why I got rid of the trailer!

Dennis

Dennis

YES that's her name, I don't know why I wanted to call her Susan but I knew it was something like that. I sure am glad to hear there are some guys passionate enough to try and bring this back to what it once was. I hope that becomes a success. We need more of it.

Yes I do believe tuning clinics would be a huge draw, and I've seen portable chassis dyno's become extremely popular when you do occasionally have a show that brings one in. Why they don't do that more I have no clue. I've even thought about buying one myself and traveling around with it.
There are tons of folks that want or should I say NEED to learn. So many car owners don't know the first thing about working on the car, let alone tuning it. The wax on wax off group is probably the worst, and where most of my work comes from, lol. I just got one in here yesterday and the car is a complete mess. It's pretty, but I wouldn't trust it to drive around the block.

We have the same thought process Dennis. We drive this stuff daily. So going to the dragstrip with one is not that big of a deal. Wife drives a 69 RS Z, the real deal drivetrain and all. A car that still hasn't really dropped in prices and fetches pretty good money still for a correct one. People think I'm nuts. I don't really even flinch about it anymore. I drive my Formula everywhere, and when I feel like it I'll get some other classic out to drive, don't even own a new car. We've had some pretty rare stuff that we daily drove in the past. I figure at our age we may as well enjoy these things as much as we can while we're still around to do it. My wife loves driving them so we're happy. And when a drag race pops up that caters to classics cars, I'm there.