[ramair2]

Hi All,

Over the years there have been many threads on rare *and* desireable -not just rare ;-) Pontiacs discussed on these pages. On occassion these 'top shelf' Pontiac supercars occassionally come up for sale either here, in Hemmings, on Ebay or at one of the big auction houses. In my book, 'top shelf' is any round port high compression Pontiac (plus early and late Super Duty cars). Over the past 10+ years I've seen 1970 RA IV TA's, 1969-70 RA IV GTOs and Judges, 1973 Super Duty cars and 62-3 factory Super Duty cars all sell in one public venue or another. Sometiems several examples of each would sell in a single year.

The one exception is Ram Air II cars. Both in GTO and Firebird form.

What gives? Yes I own one (RA II Bird) so maybe I'm biased but I also have owned most of the above and without question the RA II is the most brutal of the bunch (including IV cars).

My quesion is simple. Why do RA II GTOs and Firebirds almost NEVER change hands (even private transactions are exceedingly rare). My only guess is they (esp Birds) were ripped in half due to their 1/4 mile prowess back in the day. (See Jim Mino for more recent proof of that.) Or perhaps, with zero point zero badging (unlike Judge/TA stripes, spoilers, stickers, other psychadelic fanfare, etc) they werent 'saved' during the following decades becasue they were *too* stealth-like?

Anyhow, I'd like to get a better handle on how many of these cars are still around today (restored, or unrestored, with or without their original drivetrain).

Documented RA II cars that I am aware of with owners names withheld for their privacy total 12 in all...(Again, not including he said she said, rumored/undocumented cars)....

10 Birds
8 hard top
2 convertibles
--3 RA II Birds fully restored (1 of which is a convert)--

2 GTOs
both Convertibles
--one RA II GTO fully restored--

My RA II Bird (3 owners, 62k, matching, verdoro, 4speed, bench seat, fully restored)
RA II convert Bird (triple black, 4speed, concours, matching)
RA II Bird (verdoro, 5k miles yet fully restored, matching? 4spd)
RA II convert Bird (matching, complete, 4spd orig red now green (?!) needs full resto)
RA II Bird (4speed, nightshade, matching, in need of full resto)
RA II Bird (4speed, matching two owners, needs full resto)
RA II Bird (lo mi, matching, unrestored, 4spd, green needs cosmetic,sitting 20+yr)
RA II Bird (4speed, autumn bronze, non matching?)
RA II Bird ( "" "" "")
RA II Bird (4speed/auto, black(orig)?, matching?- used at PS drags
RA II convert GTO (triple black, matching, unrestored, 4speed, recent mags)
RA II convert GTO (automatic, lo miles, matching, restored in last 10-15 yrs)
--a few more 'rumored' cars...(but none flat out documened)--

All in all, 110 RA II Birds and 246 RA II GTOs were built in 1968. Very low prodcution to be sure but nevertheless one would think we would see a FEW pop up every now and again. Over the past 15 years Ive seen zero Ram Air IIs correctly advertised for sale in a public forum of any kind.

Comments on any of this?

Also if you can add to this list by all means feel free to do so!

[poncho-mike]

I sold a single Ram II NOS head I owned for years to a guy in CA. He was an older guy and claimed to have bought a Ram II Firebird 4-spd new when he lived in NY. As I understood it, the car is still in NY and he is gathering up original parts to put it back.

I had a friend who raced a 68 Firebird drag car in the 70s. From what I was told, H-O racing or somebody published a document that said the early Ram II heads didn't have casting numbers on them. They bought Ram IV heads, removed the numbers, sandblasted the top of the ports, and tried to pass htem off as Ram IIs. I got the NOS Ram II from the left-overs from that race car, as well as a single NOS Ram IV with the cast numbers ground off.

My 68 Firebird ex-IHRA drag car was built in the early 70s. This is a different car from the one above. It was raced in B-modified production with a Ram II setup and 4-spd for a number of years. I've never run PHS on it, but I don't think it was a Ram Air car. It had the same fiberglass front end on it that it raced with in the 70s.

I've encountered one green 68 GTO Ram II 4-spd in NC about 15 years ago, but it wasn't for sale. I also ran into a guy from SC at Charlotte Autofair that claims to have a 68 GTO Ram II and was looking for a ram air pan. There was also a guy in the Darlington area of SC that owned a Ram II 4-spd Firebird and was advertising in various places looking for parts. I think that car got sold to a collector.

I've run across them over the years, but they are few and far between.

Mike

[ramair2]

Awesome info Mike. I especially like the "creativity" of that drag racer taking advantage of the 'blank' Ram Air II head deal!

BTW, my car (06A) came with the 'blank' (ie no "9 6" casting) RA II heads.
Just "R A". They are both dated D228. Not sure if any other casting dates were 'blank' like this or if only D228 RA II heads came this way...

[RA1John]

Originally Posted by poncho-mike

I sold a single Ram II NOS head I owned for years to a guy in CA. He was an older guy and claimed to have bought a Ram II Firebird 4-spd new when he lived in NY. As I understood it, the car is still in NY and he is gathering up original parts to put it back.

I think I know of this car.
When I started the 67-69 Firebird Registry back in '91, a guy called to tell me about his brothers '68 RAII Firebird in NY. Bought new, raced and then left in a garage for a very long time. I think he even sent me a copy of the B'Cast and/or Window Sticker. Need to check my files. Anyhow... I was talking w/Jim Mattison about this (back then) and before I even gave him details, he rattled off the color, VIN and dealer it was sold to.
Interesting

[feb69judge]

This should be interesting A 68 Firebird Ram Air 1 XN 400 code engine on Ebay check it out. Item number: 330149468808
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-...QQcmdZViewItem

[Ron Landis]

I know where TWO sets of heads are...both ported a bit. I was approached by an older gentleman at a show after he overheard me talking Pontiac. He needed a set of heads for his II and I directed him to one of these sets. After wasting my time and the owner's as well...he walked away from the heads for $2500. I guess he thinks he can shop around for a better deal. I wish him luck. Ron

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Ram II cars are taboo. I don't think we're supposed to even mention them.

Just kidding, but surely more exist. They are/were stealth as heck. And 68 GTO's went through a period of bastardness for a while. A number of them have probably been overlooked then crushed after being parted. If you didn't run across one with engine intact - you'd never know. And even some guys may have grabbed the engines and left the shells sitting in the junkyards when found. 68's really got low respect as projects for a long time, back when. 100 guesses of what happened to them.

A collector in Tulsa reportedly has a Black hardtop Bird II.
And I think a couple/few GTO II's as well.

I've never seen a Duece in person, unless it was unkowingly a Duece without its engine. Never found anything for a round port in a yard - period. Mike and Dexter B. got it all before I came along !

Last set of bare II heads I saw went for 2500. Had 96 cast on them.

[janderson]

Originally Posted by ramair2

BTW, my car (06A) came with the 'blank' (ie no "9 6" casting) RA II heads.
Just "R A". They are both dated D228. Not sure if any other casting dates were 'blank' like this or if only D228 RA II heads came this way...

The 2 sets of R/A II's that I had were all D228 w/o the "96" on the center ports. Sold one set that were virgin at POCI a couple years ago and have the other set that are opened up to R/A IV and ported to mid-high 260's intake and 205 exhaust. They are fresh, new ferrea 5000 series, comp roller springs, p/c seals, retainers, etc... all new. Can't decide to put on a car and run them or ???.

[ramair2]

BVZ you kill me...

" Ram II cars are taboo. I don't think we're supposed to even mention them."

You are right, I get the same feeling! RA IIs are rarely brought up and when a II topic does pop up a few chime in but most either reply with "zzzzz" or "???" I think you are on to something with your RAII-aboo theory! :-)

[68RamII]

RamAir2,

I know of 3 68 Ram Air II GTO convertibles. One in IL, one in NY and mine which is located in Ohio. I also know of another 68 GTO Ram Air II hardtop located close to me in Ohio.

Mine is currently undergoing a frame off restoration. It would be great if I could find a 68 GTO expert that could help supply information for this restoration. Does anyone know who the true 68 GTO expert would be?

My car is Flam Burg exterior with white top and parchment interior. It is also a 4 sp car. At this time I am still in search of the correct 7028273 carb and a passenger side exhaust manifold.

I dont know about the value of these cars but when I am talking to others and explain that I have a Ram Air II car they either dont believe me or give me a look like... HOLY COW.

Any help is appreciated.
Thank You,
John

[Ron Landis]

Is the HT a black/black car? I let one get away here a few years back. Motor was gone but still had the pan on the hood. Guy knew what it was and wouldn't budge on his $5500 price. Silly me! lol Ron

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by janderson

The 2 sets of R/A II's that I had were all D228 w/o the "96" on the center ports. Sold one set that were virgin at POCI a couple years ago and have the other set that are opened up to R/A IV and ported to mid-high 260's intake and 205 exhaust. They are fresh, new ferrea 5000 series, comp roller springs, p/c seals, retainers, etc... all new. Can't decide to put on a car and run them or ???.

I've had and seen multiple sets of these heads over the years, from what I have learned, some time during the night shift of the 22nd, the 96's went on the heads. All of the D238 and later cast heads have them and one night set of D228's that I have seen had them. I have come across an F dated set and multiple January 69 SR heads. I currently have one pair that is a split set - 1 D228, 1 D238, just sold a set of D22's and also just purchased an undated, non 96 set from a member here - thanks Jeff.

I'm currently looking for a set of January 69 heads that I can put on my XS motor - just for fun.

[David Holmberg]

Joe, did you ever contact the RAII owner here in Port Charlotte?

[feb69judge]

Nice Ram Air 11 article in MuscleCar Enthusiast September 07 Issue on paeges 50-51 owned by Truman Fields of Englewood,FL set many NHRA ansd IHRA.

[ramair2]

trumans car is not a documened ram air ii bird...set up as one but not a ra 2 bird as produced by the factory...

[techteacher5561]

ramairII, this is a neat thread w/ lots of good info. A cool read. Thanks Boss for posting the pics of the heads, I just learned the RAII's were round ports. I thought it was just the IV's.
Interesting and very cool stuff!!!

This is one thing I love about this board- the collective knowledge is awesome when shared. Besides loving pontiacs I'm a history nut and dig this kind of stuff.

Howard

[ramair2]

By the way if anyone wishes to PM me with cars that they know of (vs posing here) thats cool too. I will try to put together a comprehensive list (my original one + board contribution RA II cars) for anyone interested (with owner initials only)....RA II registry down the road??

:-)

[69goatboy]

I'm with Howard, cool thread. Lots of info.

Anyone have any similar info on RAI's?
I have a set of #31's on my 69, so I'm curious about the RAI's.

I'm curious about what prompted Pontiac engineers to revise the RAI to the II, II to III, III to IV.

Also why the d-port (ra1) then round-port (ra2) then d-port again (ra3) then round port again (ra4) versions of the heads?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[ramair2]

yeah thats always confused people...

actually the progression was...

ra 1 (67-68) followed by ram air II (68 1/2) then followed by ram air IV(69-70)...all were L67 designated...(except for 70 RA IV which in fbody form was LS1 since 70 RA IV was supposed to be a SD RA IV of sorts..that however is another story...see mccarthys book for more details on that)

anyhow all of those egines were the 'top dog' at their respective times...

ALL L67s were special in that you got beefed up bottom end incl a 4bolt main block, special ra specific heads, more radical cam, re-calibrated performance carb, forged alum pistons (ra 2/4), armasteel crank (ra 2/4), mandatory 3.90/4.33 gears, unique harmonic balancer (RA II/IV), you couldnt get AC, LB manifolds and alum intake manifold (ra iv) and of couse functiona RA induction..all in all L67s were all VERY well thought out complete factory race packages...

ram air III/400ho L74 package were upgrades over teh std 400 package but not in the same boat as L67 cars...

the L74 had the 'medium performance' designate...

infact the notion of a 'ram air III' only started in 69 (1968 400HO was the mechanical equivalent of 69-70 RA III save for the functional ram air one could get in 69-70)

68-70 L74 400HO were pretty much standard 400 cars with longbranch exhaust manifolds, re-calibrated carbs, and a slightly upgraded cam (ONLY if you got 4speed...auto cars got standard 067 cam)...

L74 ram air III was same as 400HO except you also got functional induction...however except for a reported few ram air III 69 400HOs, you got a 2 bolt main, you COULD get ac (unlike L67), high numeric gearing was not mandatory and cam upgrade over std 400 was zero (or 1 notch up if you got a stick)...also RA III heads werent unique...(they could be had on standard 400 cars.)

all his was very different than the top end, race oriented RA I, II and IV equipped L67 cars...

hope this helps...

[Judge273]

I know the 71 455 HO didn't have the compression. But, Pontiac still put the goodies in the guts to run with the big dogs with some extra torque. From the looks of it could beat those RA II in stock form?

Factory Stock ET's November 2006

1. Jim Spetzman 1969 Dodge Super Bee 440 12.12@112 mph
2. Bruno Beltrane 1969 Pontiac GTO 400 RAIV 12.28@115 mph
3. Peter Germani 1971 Pontiac GTO 455HO 12.30@112 mph
4. Jim Mino 1968 Pontiac Firebird 400 RAII 12.50@114 mph
5. Chuck Lombardi 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle 396 12.51@111 mph
6. Steve Polimeni 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS6 12.67@110 mph
7. Glen Annarumma 1971 Pontiac Trans Am 455HO 12.95@107 mph
8. Larry Wittig 1967 Plymouth GTX 426 Hemi 12.97@111 mph
9. Steve Vanderwall 1969 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 12.97@106 mph
10. George Buttner 1968 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 13.03@100 mph (Gonzo's car)
11. Dan Korb 1972 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 13.21@103 mph
12. Chris Giardina 1969 Dodge Charger 440 13.55@103 mph
13. John Payne 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 tripower 13.87@103 mph
14. Bob Klemann 1967 Ford Fairlane GT 427 13.93@103 mph
15. Dom Scorziello 1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS5 13.93@101 mph

I think it was Jim Wangers who said the 455 HO was the second fastest GTO production engine behind the RA IV. Maybe we shouldn't crown the RA II just yet?