[ho428]

Road Racing in the US is popular and growing, Vintage Road Racing is also growing, but it's a much different demographics as "Vintage" also applies to most of the participants.
However, Vintage road racing also brings into play customers with much more disposable income than those who race in other amateur road race series. We also have many former pro drivers in our ranks as they prefer to race the older cars.

While many of the wealthiest race aged out exotics like Lola's, GT-40's, Ferrari's and such, and Porsches are popular as ever, the US Pony cars are still one of the biggest race groups, and growing.
We all grew up driving these cars, so it's only natural to do what we couldn't do back in the day, but unless you build a Mustang or Camaro, you're basically screwed by lack of parts and support.

Try to find an aftermarket Pontiac block with a 4" bore, try to find a crank, short deck block, short deck intake, even RA-IV iron heads are like hens teeth.
There's no doubt Pontiac will survive as a drag race engine, but it appears vendors are no longer stocking much.
Waiting months for a block, or a set of heads, will eventually drive all but the most die hards away.
Pistons, cams, rods, and some cranks are fairly easy to come by, why? Because the main Pontiac vendors aren't the ones making them.
If you want some out of the box heads, no problem, you want something CNC'd, get in a long line. You want a block, get in a longer line. You want something uncommon, forget about it.

I know of two Pontiac road race cars being built in my area right now. A 1970 Trans Am with a SBC engine, and a 1969 Leman's with a SBC engine.

Dear Santa; all I want for Christmas a short deck race block with a 4.0" bore, I'll spring for the billet crank and custom build the intake and headers.

[steve25]

Yeah, but then with the short deck you get to the Intake Manifold issue where cutting back the runners on most Manifolds makes for runners that have too much port area , and too short a runner lenght for anything but a very high and narrow power band with 303 CID!
The single 4 bbl cross ram that was made for the RA4 heads is the only thing that the package a good combo and competitive if you ask me!

[tom s]

There are actually 303s being built right now,one is a second gen std deck RA IV headed engine and the other is a short deck 303 RA V,actually the original Titus engine and car.Shaver engines out here is doing the short deck.I just helped the std deck guy with a block and cam.He is intending to run the factory dry sump system.Tom

[ho428]

I've seen and heard about some of these std deck engines being built. I'll be real interested to see how they compete and hold together against 40 years of SBF and SBC development.
When a Boss 302 passes me turning 9000 rpms, his down shift rpm is my redline.

Building an engine is one thing, making it perform is a whole different ball game.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see these engines perform, the more that get built the better they'll be. But like others I can't afford the R&D, time or money.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ho428

I've seen and heard about some of these std deck engines being built. I'll be real interested to see how they compete and hold together against 40 years of SBF and SBC development.
When a Boss 302 passes me turning 9000 rpms, his down shift rpm is my redline.

Building an engine is one thing, making it perform is a whole different ball game.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see these engines perform, the more that get built the better they'll be. But like others I can't afford the R&D, time or money.

What is your redline RPM?

How does that Boss 302's maintenance schedule compare to yours?

Stan

[ho428]

The heads I have now are good to 6500, could possible push it to 6800 but the 290 cfm heads seem to run out of breath at 6500, plus I'm down to my last block. I don't push it unless I have a spare.

Cam was spec'd for some SD 305 heads I had built with better springs and Ti retainers and should do 7000, but due to having to scramble after my last engine broke I ended up with what I have.

Boss guys have crews, as do a lot of those teams, like Cobra Automotive, and Gary Jones Motorsports. They pull valve covers after every track session and do all their at track maintenance.
Unless I have an issue mine only gets worked on between events as tires, brakes, fuel, plugs, timing, etc.. tie up my time between sessions.

[ho428]

There are still a few privateers like myself, and in general we're pretty even, and while we do race each other on track we're not in the same class. But it's all about bragging rights and a beer anyway.
I actually enjoy racing against the Corvettes more than the Mustangs, can't really explain why other than we're pretty darn close on lap times.

I'll probably start paddocking with the Corvettes soon, now that I've run with them for a season we're starting to get to know each other, so group pits lets us help each other more.

[mrrat1]

If you ever come up to Millville, NJ I'll get a few guys together for a pit crew!!
Would be happy to help you out...........

[ho428]

Originally Posted by tom s

There are actually 303s being built right now,one is a second gen std deck RA IV headed engine and the other is a short deck 303 RA V,actually the original Titus engine and car.Shaver engines out here is doing the short deck.I just helped the std deck guy with a block and cam.He is intending to run the factory dry sump system.Tom

I saw where the Gray Ghost engine was recently replaced using a 326 block and RA-IV heads. No idea what crank they used to get it to 303, perhaps a 366 crank? 3.75 x 3.375 B&S?
We had a thread about building a 303 from a 350, seemed no one thought it was a good idea though.
I was thinking a 3.937 bore and 3.125 stroke would be a well matched B&S. The bore is a good bit larger than the 326 and only .060 under a 302 SBC or SBF's bore and uses a .125 longer stroke.
Custom crank required and still stuck with the 7" rod and a tall piston CH.

[Stan Weiss]

It comes down to what valve size and flow can you get from the heads.

Bore = 3.718"
Stroke = 3.488"
Rod = 6.8"
CH = 1.64"
Deck height =10.20"

=======

Bore = 3.875"
Stroke = 3.211"
Rod = 6.8"
CH = 1.78"
Deck height =10.2015"

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by ho428

I saw where the Gray Ghost engine was recently replaced using a 326 block and RA-IV heads. No idea what crank they used to get it to 303, perhaps a 366 crank? 3.75 x 3.375 B&S?
We had a thread about building a 303 from a 350, seemed no one thought it was a good idea though.
I was thinking a 3.937 bore and 3.125 stroke would be a well matched B&S. The bore is a good bit larger than the 326 and only .060 under a 302 SBC or SBF's bore and uses a .125 longer stroke.
Custom crank required and still stuck with the 7" rod and a tall piston CH.

303 ENGINE - 4.125" BORE AND 2.84" STROKE. MOST WERE SHORT DECK ENGINES.

366 Engine - 4.151" bore and 3.375" stroke regular deck engines used a 7.080" long rod.
The very few short deck 366 engines used shorter rod.

Bob and Frank Short Deck iron block:

4.250" ASSUMED BORE:
BLOCK DECK HEIGHT: 9.450"
ROD LENGTH: 6.385" (SIMILAR TO CHEBBY CARRILLO ROD)
CRANK STROKE: 3.5"
PISTON PIN HEIGHT: 1.295"

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

303 ENGINE - 4.125" BORE AND 2.84" STROKE. MOST WERE SHORT DECK ENGINES.

366 Engine - 4.151" bore and 3.375" stroke regular deck engines used a 7.080" long rod.
The very few short deck 366 engines used shorter rod.

Bob and Frank Short Deck iron block:

4.250" ASSUMED BORE:
BLOCK DECK HEIGHT: 9.450"
ROD LENGTH: 6.385" (SIMILAR TO CHEBBY CARRILLO ROD)
CRANK STROKE: 3.5"
PISTON PIN HEIGHT: 1.295"

Tom V.

Rod = 6.5"
CH = 1.53"

The big question would be. What is the time frame to get a low deck block.

Stan

[ponchorob]

ho 428....next year ill try to get my 67 firebird for road racing...in the histo cup series also roger bolliger is there but in an other class like me.....to make pontiac engine liveable is very hard to do..since you have some experience on roadracing...im interested what kind of chassis set up..you have on your bird.the weight of your car, spring rates front and rear,shocks, tires , transtype ,swaybar size also what kind of braking system.... i know i 67 camaro he uses 1000lbs front springs and 300lbs rear leafs for example...

[tom s]

Std deck 303s were and will be a looser!PEROID.You have to compete with 302 chevys,spot them weight number one and everything else wrong with the combo.A short deck with IV heads would be a diff animal but would need a custom intake.In 69 they allowed 2-4s but in 70 they went with a single 4.The factory made a shortdeck 2-4 Xram for the IV heads and also the V heads but the V heads sucked.Tom

[tom s]

pontiac short decks are 9.2 as I remember.Tom

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by tom s

pontiac short decks are 9.2 as I remember.Tom

I agree Tom, I do not know where Stan came up with the numbers he did.

I posted the numbers for MY IA-2 Short Deck 9.5" (Bob and Frank) block with the Moldex special 3.5" stroke crank and the rods I assumed.

The Pontiac Cast up 303 short deck blocks were more like (as you posted 9.2") deck height.
Using Stan's numbers you would have a 2.3" stroke crank, totally wrong vs the Pontiac specs. 2.84" stroke.

Tom V.

[tom s]

The IA was-is a "shorter"deck block.I think Picketts wagon engine had a 9in deck block!Not sure what they did with the oil filter location on the block to get it that low.I think the IA stopped at 9.5 for that exact reason.Tom

[Tom Vaught]

Believe you are correct on that deal,Tom.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

It comes down to what valve size and flow can you get from the heads.

Bore = 3.718"
Stroke = 3.488"
Rod = 6.8"
CH = 1.64"
Deck height =10.20"

=======

Bore = 3.875"
Stroke = 3.211"
Rod = 6.8"
CH = 1.78"
Deck height =10.2015"

Stan

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

303 ENGINE - 4.125" BORE AND 2.84" STROKE. MOST WERE SHORT DECK ENGINES.

366 Engine - 4.151" bore and 3.375" stroke regular deck engines used a 7.080" long rod.
The very few short deck 366 engines used shorter rod.

Bob and Frank Short Deck iron block:

4.250" ASSUMED BORE:
BLOCK DECK HEIGHT: 9.450"
ROD LENGTH: 6.385" (SIMILAR TO CHEBBY CARRILLO ROD)
CRANK STROKE: 3.5"
PISTON PIN HEIGHT: 1.295"

Tom V.

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Rod = 6.5"
CH = 1.53"

The big question would be. What is the time frame to get a low deck block.

Stan

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I agree Tom, I do not know where Stan came up with the numbers he did.

I posted the numbers for MY IA-2 Short Deck 9.5" (Bob and Frank) block with the Moldex special 3.5" stroke crank and the rods I assumed.

The Pontiac Cast up 303 short deck blocks were more like (as you posted 9.2") deck height.
Using Stan's numbers you would have a 2.3" stroke crank, totally wrong vs the Pontiac specs. 2.84" stroke.

Tom V.

Tom,

Bore = 4.12"
Stroke = 2.84"
Rod = 6.5"
CH = 1.53"
Deck height = 9.45"

Is bad reading comprehension?
Is it bad Math skills?
Or is it just Tom being Tom?

Don't really care. Because the number are correct. Just to be clear all deck heights are with the piston at zero deck.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Tom,

Bore = 4.12"
Stroke = 2.84"
Rod = 6.5"
CH = 1.53"
Deck height = 9.45"

Is bad reading comprehension?
Is it bad Math skills?
Or is it just Tom being Tom?

Don't really care. Because the number are correct. Just to be clear all deck heights are with the piston at zero deck.

Stan

I was questioning why you would be spending a lot of the man's money for a one-off connection rod length ... 6.5" (with the 1.53" piston compression height), Stan, when the rod is not available without $$$$ vs buying a off the shelf 6.535" rod (+.400" long) normal BB Chebby rod made by everyone and then adjust the piston compression height.

You can throw out numbers all day long to get some BS number but at the end of the day Stan the customer wants a rod he can buy easily and get replacements easily.
So NOT 'bad reading comprehension'. Not 'bad Math skills'. Just 'Tom being Tom', who knows a bit more about reality vs you.

Merry Christmas Stan to you and your family.

Tom V.