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#81
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Don't forget I am talking about sleeving an undamaged, thick wall,early block with a stock bore of 4.062" down to 4.00" , not just sleeving a damaged bore or two. Thin wall liners are available so that the early bores would only need to be bored out to 4.100", no problem for an early block. My own '59 389 block is bored to 4.090" and is making around 1000hp.
I agree that a good machine shop should be found for this procedure,and personally I would use a top hat liner Loctited in . It was just a thought if the OP was set on a 4.00" bore.. Probably easier to use the stock bore size and a custom short stroke crank. |
#82
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Yep, the Corvette's generally weigh more than the Camaro's, might be why I run better with them. I need about 150 off total, going to install lexan glass front and rear, probably get a hollow front sway bar, rear I'll go to an aluminum fuel cell container but add a Watts link so no net loss in the rear. A short deck block is the only possible non Aluminum block option to drop more significant weight in the front and stay Pontiac. The 301T looks like the only viable block to do that with, but the cost of the build might be too much to tackle though. A lot of custom one off parts.
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#83
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Don Keefe, Founding Editor-in-Chief, Poncho Perfection Magazine (October 1, 2015- present) www.ponchoperfection.com Contributing Editor: Collectible Automobile (1999- present) Author: "Grand Prix: Pontiac's Luxury Performance Car" (Released April 27, 2007) "How to Restore Your Pontiac GTO" (Released July 15, 2012) "Pontiac Concept and Show Cars, 1939-1980" (Release Date April, 2016) "Leave the gun, take the cannoli." |
#84
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The only real custom one offs are the crank and intake,maybe head gaskets.The Butler gaskets worked for me.BBC rod and a custom piston that would be needed in almost any build.Biggest expense is the crank.At one time I looked into buying a vintage hilborn injection and convert to EFI.Then no custom intake needed.Tom
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#85
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell Last edited by hurryinhoosier62; 12-27-2016 at 03:07 PM. |
#86
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Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#87
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell Last edited by hurryinhoosier62; 12-27-2016 at 08:00 PM. |
#88
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The 528 Ford(.060 over 4.3 stroke 6.8 rods) I built a few years back. had 3 sleeves(Dartons) side by side and one on the opposite bank...Ended up in a 3000lb Mustang initially running high 8 sec in 1/4 mile. he quit drag racing after two seasons and put the motor in his Jet boat. I'm told he runs the snot out of it. If issues with sleeves side by side I'm sure I'd have heard about it by now. 76 passenger 460 blocks arent known for thick walls. only thing stronger on them over an early 70's Pontiac block is the lifter valley. 301T blocks(1979) and all newer 301 blocks (1980 and 1981) are pretty much the same block and seem as strong as an early 70's block. I know of one that sono'd safe for a substantial bore increase(4.155 with partial fill). 3" "400 style" cranks can have thrusts welded and recut to fit, or mods allowing 400 thrust bearing in 301 block. Strokes can be altered (de-stroked or stroked)considerably going with smaller rod journals(SBC 2.1,2.0, Honda 1.88??) and offset grinding. Intake manifold is a challenge...modified stock 301 turbo intake set up for MPFI? or cut and weld cast aftermarket or sheet metal. |
#89
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Bruce,no way to get a 3 3/4 stroke crank to 3 in!Tom
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#90
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Bruce, I've installed too many sleeves. You'll never see me install two side by side UNLESS it's in a modular Ford or an LS. It's just too "iffy". You have no idea how much corrosion is in the water jacket, if there is any errosion from coolant flow or if porosity is present in the cylinder walls. BTW....many 385 series Ford blocks were cast with siamesed cylinders. All the current Ford Racing 460 blocks utilize siamesed cylinders.
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell Last edited by hurryinhoosier62; 12-27-2016 at 11:42 PM. |
#91
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But again, the OP is trying to get to a specific cid number, use traditional pontiac parts, and not spend much money. Even with using a Honda rod journal rod, asking to destroke an engine 3/4" is a big stretch of the imagination. Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#92
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1> Say what? How could block strength not relate to cylinder wall thickness? 2> "common wall" has no meaning here- we're talking about Pontiac V8 blocks in which all eight cylinders are non-siamesed. 3> Huh? All Pontiac V8 blocks have 4.62" bore centers. 4.100" bores would leave .520" between the walls of adjacent cylinders. Where did you get .180"? Bruce Wilkie's success with multiple sleeved engines doesn't surprise me at all. My own sleeved blown-alky V8 hemi (370 c.i., 9,000 RPM, over 900 HP) uses a very fragile M/T aluminum block (all of 69 pounds which was intended for bore-plating not sleeving) is still running fine after many years of hard-fought competition.
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) Last edited by Jack Gifford; 12-28-2016 at 03:53 AM. |
#93
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Tom,to grind a crank even half that really changes where the oil holes end up.It has always been a issue when I was offset grinding 57-58 cranks for my short deck V engines.Tom
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#94
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Jack, 1.) Read my ENTIRE statement...I specify that sleeving actually WEAKENS the base cylinder wall. The maximum press on a sleeve is .003. I've seen base cylinder walls crack and break out just installing a sleeve. We had a guy that thought tighter was better when installing a sleeve. It's NOT. The sleeving process can actually distort the base wall to the extent that it bulges outwards. 2.) I specify this in a later post: NO Pontiac block was ever cast with siamesed cylinder walls. Siamesed block are far easier to sleeve than non-siamesesd cylinder walls. 3.) Paul Carter and I had a long conversation off line about minimum cylinder wall thickness. The rule of thumb when I was learning engine building was .140 minimum thickness on the cylinders walls, period. Paul commented that he had ultrasonic tested a '59 389 and found the side walls were .180, NOT .520. You know, there are water passages in there as well as cylinder walls. Lastly, have you ever sleeved a block? I have. There are very few blocks I would consider placing two sleeves side by side. A siamesed block would be one of those. Pontiac are NOT siamesed; therefore I would NOT do it based on my experience as an engine machinist. I worked for the largest indpendent engine remanufacturer for several years. We sleeved both diesel and gasoline blocks every day. Our policy was to NOT place two sleeves side by side in a V-block, period. We had to warranty these engines for 3 years/36,000 miles. We didn't take unnecessary chances...
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#95
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#96
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I will leave it to others to answer your questioning Jack's machining skills. Stan
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Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises Offering Performance Software Since 1987 http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php Pontiac Pump Gas List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm Using PMD Block and Heads List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm |
#97
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell Last edited by hurryinhoosier62; 12-28-2016 at 07:39 PM. |
#98
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Ok, my '59 389 block that I sonic checked was much thicker than the one that Paul checked, none of the walls were less than .200" and most places were .240".
So going off your figures for sleeve sizes and press fit etc. Do we all agree that it would be fine to bore a stock 4.062" early block out to 4.125" ? That's 0.063" in total, so 0.0315" either side, dropping the thickness of the bore wall from (lets use Pauls numbers) 0.180" to 0.1485". Right, so now we are going to sleeve the early block. Using your figures, we again bore the stock 4.062 stock bore out to 4.125" to take the 4.128" diameter thin wall sleeve. So we still have a 4.125" hole with a minimum 0.1485" wall thickness each side! But we then strengthen the bores slightly by pressing in a high quality thin wall sleeve, giving us the finished 4.00" finished bore size we wanted. There is no 'common' wall on an early 389 block like a siamesed Chevy block, each bore has a water jacket between it and the adjacent one,so each bore wall is .180" thick, the only place they are joined is at the top close to the deck, and at the base, where the metal is quite a lot thicker. Personally I think a 0.003" press fit is too tight in an iron block-contributing to the distortion you speak of-, I would be happier with 0.0015" to 0.002" and a good locking compound-Green Loctite comes to mind. Here is where finding a 'good' machine shop to do this process is essential,not your average truck/commercial sleeving facility. Sleeving of all 8 bores was routine before high performance blocks were available. A road race engine does not see anywhere near the cylinder pressures of a forced induction drag engine, heat build up would be my concern in a road race application and this is easily addressed with a proper cooling system. There are more ways than one to skin a cat and the way I would go if it was my project, but it's just my opinion. |
#99
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Ways I would use to get weight off the front end- tubular crossmember and A arms,rack and pinion steering, ali coil over shock absorbers,ali hubs and brake calipers,ali radiator,ali water pump and thin stock timing cover,small Nippon Denso alternator(40-65 amps,comes on Kubota diggers),ali oil pan,etc. Then I would get out the hole saw and cheese drill everything I could! If I was really serious, I would then look at the factory block to see where I could remove metal off the outside of it, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of un-necessary casting lumps etc that could be trimmed or ground off. It all depends on how serious you want to get really!
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#100
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I am looking at the alternator and PS pump, not a big savings but every little bit adds up. That Quick Time bell is heavy but running an 8" dual disc aluminum flywheel and clutch, I feel safer with it there. QA-1 Carbon fiber driveshaft is on the wish list.
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