[cgeise]

I was just reading thru some of the threads here and it kinda struck a cord on a few different fronts. First -- we seem to argue about almost everything even Motor homes, just saying.
Another other point I see is that being on the "edge" of the racing/performance world us Pontiac guys seems to feel the need to puff out our chest a little hard, even with other Pontiac guys. I know Plenty of guys Racing NHRA National and divisional and never hear this division by camp stuff. One opinion on why this is --- Most of the Product they are using comes from big company's that have a proven product to sell. We on the other hand are a very small neich group and some of our stuff is done on a shoe string by "Enthusiests" that have limited experience or business savy. This not a knock, and I applaud there effort, but it does produce mixed results and its own set of Problems.
Another point that seems to be in the back ground is the fact that very few busines's will ever survive long being a Pontiac only entity. I think the succesfull ones wear many hats and do the Pontiac stuff as a labor of love, while at the same time making some extra money, while letting there main line stuff pay the bills. Ok Flame on

[v869tr6]

I hope to someday have a set of 18 head bolt heads on a Pontiac style block at a reasonable cost.

[LMSRACER]

Guys,
I first got involved with coatings in the world of competitive circle track racing. In 1992 we were using coatings for manual transmission gears, ring & pinions, windage trays, piston skirts, combustion chambers, piston tops, flat tappet camshafts and of course headers.

We used Polydyne Coatings and Jet Hot at that time and we now use Calico Coatings and Airborne Coatings.

Here's what I can tell you guys for a FACT. It reduced oil temperatures and it reduced flat tappet camshaft wear and ring & pinion wear.

Another situation that a lot of the guys here are familiar with is D-Port Cylinder Heads. If you have the exhaust ports coated on a D-Port Head, the engine paint on the outside of the exhaust ports doesn't burn off during the break-in period. Without the coatings the paint burns off immediately. The reason that I bring this up is how that relates to head gasket failure between cylinders 3 & 5 and 4 & 6 and how the coatings in the exhaust ports and combustion chambers can help to reduce this as a problem.

DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) Coatings have become the Norm for Wrist Pins in every Nascar Engine that I'm aware of. PPP out of Arden North Carolina Prepares the Wrist Pins and Calico Coatings Applies the Coatings for many of the Nascar Engine Builder Programs.

I can go on, but for me, they have a place and I firmly believe that. Increased Longevity of Powertrain Components and the POTENTIAL for Increased Power Output is all that I need.

It's my opinion,
Larry S.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Guys,
I first got involved with coatings in the world of competitive circle track racing. In 1992 we were using coatings for manual transmission gears, ring & pinions, windage trays, piston skirts, combustion chambers, piston tops, flat tappet camshafts and of course headers.

We used Polydyne Coatings and Jet Hot at that time and we now use Calico Coatings and Airborne Coatings.

Here's what I can tell you guys for a FACT. It reduced oil temperatures and it reduced flat tappet camshaft wear and ring & pinion wear.

Another situation that a lot of the guys here are familiar with is D-Port Cylinder Heads. If you have the exhaust ports coated on a D-Port Head, the engine paint on the outside of the exhaust ports doesn't burn off during the break-in period. Without the coatings the paint burns off immediately. The reason that I bring this up is how that relates to head gasket failure between cylinders 3 & 5 and 4 & 6 and how the coatings in the exhaust ports and combustion chambers can help to reduce this as a problem.

DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) Coatings have become the Norm for Wrist Pins in every Nascar Engine that I'm aware of. PPP out of Arden North Carolina Prepares the Wrist Pins and Calico Coatings Applies the Coatings for many of the Nascar Engine Builder Programs.

I can go on, but for me, they have a place and I firmly believe that. Increased Longevity of Powertrain Components and the POTENTIAL for Increased Power Output is all that I need.

It's my opinion,
Larry S.

good post. I'm aware of and have used a few..calico micro blue etc...also agree on benifits other than hp. We're back to theory though on Hp gains

[LMSRACER]

Mike,
I'm not sure that just the addition of coatings would make a marked/measurable improvement in horsepower. The techniques that one can employ during the building process is where I believe the improvements are to be had.

For Example:
- Coated Piston Skirts and Piston Tops = Less Heat Absorbed by the Piston and Therefore a Lesser Degree of Thermal Expansion. This means that a tighter piston to wall clearance and tighter piston ring gaps could be used.
- Oil Shedding Coatings on Internal Rotating Components and Windage Trays = Less Drag/Parasitic Power Loss on the Crankshaft due to Windage.
- Coated Exhaust Components and Carburetor to Scoop Trays = Less Heat Absorbed in the Incoming Air Stream = Lower Inlet Temperatures and Greater Air Density.

These are just three examples and they are three that I'm sure that you're aware of. The Point is that the power increases aren't necessarily in direct relation to the coatings but instead indirectly related.

Question: Have you ever handled a Coated Ring Gear? Slippery Little Devil.

Larry S.

[LMSRACER]

Longevity....

Years ago when I Bracket Raced regularly, I would freshen my engine every year. What I found was that the coated piston tops could be cleaned in a parts washer with 0000 steel wool for three or four rebuilds before the coating would begin to wear through on the edges. The Pistons always looked like new once the carbon was removed.

I never replaced a piston unless the ring groove to ring clearance (Radial Clearance) got too great.

Larry S.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Mike,
I'm not sure that just the addition of coatings would make a marked/measurable improvement in horsepower. The techniques that one can employ during the building process is where I believe the improvements are to be had.

For Example:
- Coated Piston Skirts and Piston Tops = Less Heat Absorbed by the Piston and Therefore a Lesser Degree of Thermal Expansion. This means that a tighter piston to wall clearance and tighter piston ring gaps could be used.
- Oil Shedding Coatings on Internal Rotating Components and Windage Trays = Less Drag/Parasitic Power Loss on the Crankshaft due to Windage.
- Coated Exhaust Components and Carburetor to Scoop Trays = Less Heat Absorbed in the Incoming Air Stream = Lower Inlet Temperatures and Greater Air Density.

These are just three examples and they are three that I'm sure that you're aware of. The Point is that the power increases aren't necessarily in direct relation to the coatings but instead indirectly related.

Question: Have you ever handled a Coated Ring Gear? Slippery Little Devil.

Larry S.

For what its worth...I employ a few of the following on the ole fireturd, replies in order of points.
1. I run a fairly tight piston to wall. And a tightish gap on the top ring. The second well lets just say its BIG. I've repeatedly asked very informed guys that sell and recommend piston coatings about them and the repeated answer I get is Nah Not NA and not unless the skirt clearance needs tightened. By tightening the skirt with a coating the clearance at the ring land is increased. A push. The old pistons are going right back in. Coating the piston would likely not effect end gaps. If you coated the rings....MAYBE. I DOUBT IT.
2. I've got special finishes and coatings in several places on the rotating assembly. Are they worth hp? Not that I can measure.
3. I use coated, Headers, And air pan to help control intake temp so I agree with point 3. They claim the header coating is 10hp(no way by itself) Sure is nice not getting burned by the headers. I cant get anyone to back up my intake thermal coating theory so I won't say that it will work But has promise........I'm Not he guy to state Ideas as facts until they are facts.

The point of contention is Number 1 for this discussion. NO EXTRA (measurable)HP FROM THE COATING. period. You might get Something you can measure from 2 and 3. 3 being the most likely.

I'm not nearly as inexperienced at all of this as you may think. YES i've held coated needle, Ball, taper, slider bearings as well as ring and pinion and other gear sets. Many are my parts! Come on man I'm not talking about something I did not research a while ago.

[David Holmberg]

Curt I think it comes down to one thing, honestly.

Passion. As you stated, Pontiac shops do this as a labor of love with the hopes of breaking even much less making a profit. To them this is their baby, and they love it.

When people criticize kids in a beauty contest its all good until you happen say something to a parent or relative then the fight is on. When its your baby you will defend it even when all odds are against you.

Happy New year!

[Elarson]

The limits on available Pontiac parts forces serious racers to be more creative and to work harder at putting together a good engine package. That's what makes running Pontiacs interesting to me. I'd be bored to death getting out my checkbook and buying a bunch of proven Chevy parts (or hemi parts in the case of the funny car).

JMHO,
Eric

[Travis Q]

Eric, I fully agree when you're bracket racing, doing booked in shows, or match racing.

When you're heads up racing, it sure does become hard to justify the "cool factor" of running a Pontiac when you are down three to four tenths and get your butt handed to you on a weekly basis (if you can even qualify). And goodness help you should you hurt something.....

[Elarson]

Which explains why we love match racing....we get to pursue our passion instead of a rule book.

On an entirely different note, I've always wondered if somebody with a really deep checkbook couldn't make a competitive Pontiac for Comp. I imagine starting with the best legal head available and then working backward to determine a small inch engine that would make enough power-to-cubes to be competitive. The price tag would not be for the faint of heart but the cool factor would be out the roof.

JMHO,
Eric

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Which explains why we love match racing....we get to pursue our passion instead of a rule book.

In Outlaw Pro Mod racing here in the Southeast, there is no rule book. Sign the waiver and race.

Which means that we get to go up against BAE Hemis with C rotor screw blowers at 125% overdrive, and 905 cubic inch engines with four stages of nitrous......with a Pontiac sporting Performer RPM cylinder heads.


We've truly lost our ever loving minds.

If only there were more of us, maybe doing a billet block or head for our application would make more sense.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Elarson

The limits on available Pontiac parts forces serious racers to be more creative and to work harder at putting together a good engine package. That's what makes running Pontiacs interesting to me. I'd be bored to death getting out my checkbook and buying a bunch of proven Chevy parts (or hemi parts in the case of the funny car).

JMHO,
Eric

One of the things that stunts us is the "proven" parts thing... its a nice thing to want in some ways, but at our volume level it could/can drive costs of some things to point most wouldnt/cant justify spending for.

If a manufacturer had to build some killer combo, dyno it and refine it to perfection, that cost, one way or another, would get passed onto all the consumers of that companies products.(Yep our Pontiac part prices from Edelbrock help cover r+d costs on Chev and Ford parts) A start-up company has to eat costs till they establish market then work on recouping their investment.

If you are a big company with thousands of customers your R+D costs can be spread across those thousands of customers allowing you a very competitive price advantage.

You can bet those R+D costs arent eaten by the larger more established company. No one runs a business to lose money. Nor do business want unhappy customers.

With the low volume of consumers in this market extensive R+D of certain products would up our price tag considerably.

I think we are quite fortunate to have what we have and thank all those who are trying to bring to market things we need and want.

So much we do have is because of talented Pontiac enthusiasts trying to aid our cause. Keep in mind many(most?) of them arent marketing specialists and few if any have intensions that are questionable.

[Travis Q]

I agree with Bruce to a large extent. Life in the racing world is all about scale.

Here is another way to look at it: In the Outlaw Pro Mod world (that's what I talk about a lot because that's what we try to race in), there are a healthy number of racers who will buy one, sometimes two brand new engines every year, plus spare parts for the season. This is easily $100,000 worth of equipment. In a year. If you're talking nitrous engines, double that figure. These are the guys who are pushing the R&D forward with these engines. Now, the biggest contingent of the racers will buy used engines or an engine with a combination of new/used components. These engines are usually sold for around $20-25,000. These guys somewhat support the development of new products, but not to the extent of the first group. Then there are the guys that buy up the REALLY used and baked stuff, the ten year old stuff, the nitro castoffs, the repaired and welded up a million times stuff. These guys are probably around 10-15% of the racers. Putting together an engine like this would probably cost 10-12K, give or take. These guys don't really contribute much in terms of funding new ideas and product development.

Now, in the Pontiac world, there are maybe six or eight racers, tops, that compete with this type of car. IN THE WORLD. That means that there are maybe one or two that will buy the newest, latest/greatest stuff, there's the biggest part of us in the middle (4 racers, maybe?) and a couple of guys who race on older parts.

So if the development of the Pontiac racing platform is developed from the same areas as other platforms, then the top dogs are going to drive ALL the development, the rest of us will benefit from it.

If we look at the nitro ranks, the small tire ranks, and the naturally aspirated Pro Stock style ranks, then we might be able to add four, maybe five more cars to the list of R&D "pushers".

This means that the development of the ENTIRE Pontiac racing engine platform is being driven by five to seven cars, on a good day. And the top shelf development fuels the parts for the bracket racers, the sportsman racers, the weekend warriors like us.

It's no wonder that development of the Pontiac racing engine is stagnant! Anyone who wants more and better parts for their race cars (or street cars!) better doggone well be behind those five to seven racers and the supporting companies who are paddling that boat......

Sorry for the rant, sorry for the long read.

Not really. LOL

[Travis Q]

And to add to Curt's post, I have no idea why the division in the Pontiac community. It is truly baffling to me. If anything, as small as the group is, Pontiac enthusiasts should be pulling together. Now, I understand that there are sometimes differences of opinions, or feathers get ruffled, but that's really not what I'm referring to.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

And to add to Curt's post, I have no idea why the division in the Pontiac community. It is truly baffling to me. If anything, as small as the group is, Pontiac enthusiasts should be pulling together. Now, I understand that there are sometimes differences of opinions, or feathers get ruffled, but that's really not what I'm referring to.

X 1,000,000

Eric

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

And to add to Curt's post, I have no idea why the division in the Pontiac community. It is truly baffling to me. If anything, as small as the group is, Pontiac enthusiasts should be pulling together. Now, I understand that there are sometimes differences of opinions, or feathers get ruffled, but that's really not what I'm referring to.

On that note, it's worthy of mention that Mike and I have endeavored to maintain cordial, respectful relations with everyone in the Pontiac community. Our projects do not exist in a bubble. We have drawn ideas and inspirations from all sides of the warring factions. To "pick sides" is to hobble your program.

FWIW,
Eric

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by cgeise

...Ok Flame on

Curt, What did you mean by that?

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Curt, What did you mean by that?

Simply ment that I new my post was bound to start more arguments and or controversy --

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Simply ment that I new my post was bound to start more arguments and or controversy --

"...arguments and controversy"?

Here?

On the PY Race Forum?

Really?

I never noticed the drama.