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Old 04-12-2021, 09:22 PM
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Default Number swapped a car on National TV

Just watched Dan Short owner of FantomWorks Shop rebody a rusty 57 Chevy on Motortrend. Cut around serial number by a couple inches and bondo-ed and sanded and painted it.
NOW.. Do not jump to any conclusions that I do this with my cars just cause I posted this. I wouldn’t do it cause I don’t want the headache that could arise out of it. My issue has always been the guys yelling the loudest about how wrong it is are the ones doing it the most lol

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Old 04-13-2021, 09:14 AM
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That explains why you see so many of those 55-57 chevys on Woodward. Kars inc does make a repop body.
A d I hate that show. Arrogant prick he is.

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Old 04-13-2021, 10:18 AM
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There are complete 57 bodies available now, NEW. I have no issue with this to avoid a state issued number, and the other car is gone. When its that old condition is paramount vs numbers. How many 32 Ford hot rods are out there with a "factory" vin on the frame ? Numbers are made up and stamped on old frames and new frames every day. Now to do this to change a cars value and flip, is just wrong. In VA where Short is, numbers and titles are a pain in the Ass. Maybe the body had NO numbers. Dan's big hang up has always been Brakes. The Volkswagon episode was epic stupidity..

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Old 04-13-2021, 10:49 AM
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Every other restorer in the country has his own show now. Lot of em really cut corners and display very little pride in their work. Amazes me how they have 6 guys working on a car ...disclose that they have 20,000 in it at finish and are happy when it sells for 22,500. Guess the TV money is what saves them.

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Old 04-13-2021, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shakerz View Post
Every other restorer in the country has his own show now. Lot of em really cut corners and display very little pride in their work. Amazes me how they have 6 guys working on a car ...disclose that they have 20,000 in it at finish and are happy when it sells for 22,500. Guess the TV money is what saves them.


I haven’t heard any numbers like that except on Wheeler Dealers. That show seems stupid that way.
I haven’t seen Dan or Bitchin or Joe Martin say they give anything away. Maybe I missed it.


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Old 04-13-2021, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shakerz View Post
Just watched Dan Short owner of FantomWorks Shop rebody a rusty 57 Chevy on Motortrend. Cut around serial number by a couple inches and bondo-ed and sanded and painted it.
NOW.. Do not jump to any conclusions that I do this with my cars just cause I posted this. I wouldn’t do it cause I don’t want the headache that could arise out of it. My issue has always been the guys yelling the loudest about how wrong it is are the ones doing it the most lol
That’s exactly my point. I’ve seen plenty of this sort of thing.
Mostly in restamping etc. The question is where is the line, where should the line be? I posed this question in another thread.
So a guy takes a block that could have been on one of two cars that day and hit stamped one way for that car. How bad is it if that same block that could have been used (that same cast number). Gets restored and rest amped correctly for the new car

It didn’t know where it was going that day anyway.

Now look at a guy who repops a RAIV intake,a exhaust manifold, a bumper, a pot metal piece, whatever the part may be, same part casting numbers maybe even a date code and it’s made In Let’s say China? Which is more fraudulent? One is an actual Pontiac part , one never saw a Pontiac foundry or a dealership or is even American metal

I hear a lot “ well no one might tell the new owner of the block or whatever part is a restamp” . Well same goes for the China bumper, or intake, or whatever

It’s a very hard topic. Personally I’ve never restamped or rebodied anything because I’m a drag racer not a restoration guy and never cared enough , but I know the Chevy / corvette guys do it regularly out in the open.
This is an interesting topic to me I posted it before didn’t get much response. I thought it would be a firestorm
Personally

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Old 04-13-2021, 11:07 AM
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There are complete 57 bodies available now, NEW. I have no issue with this to avoid a state issued number, and the other car is gone. When its that old condition is paramount vs numbers. How many 32 Ford hot rods are out there with a "factory" vin on the frame ? Numbers are made up and stamped on old frames and new frames every day. Now to do this to change a cars value and flip, is just wrong. In VA where Short is, numbers and titles are a pain in the Ass. Maybe the body had NO numbers. Dan's big hang up has always been Brakes. The Volkswagon episode was epic stupidity..
When someone restamps or re vins hot rod doesn’t it increase its value? It’s now a rust free part?
Not attacking your answer just using it as a example.

I find it very interesting where the line gets drawn over time with These things . I have my theories as to WHY the line got there and it’s not ethics.

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Old 04-13-2021, 11:33 AM
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When someone restamps or re vins hot rod doesn’t it increase its value? It’s now a rust free part?

This is part of the problem?
The 'car' is rust free plain jane Tempest. Paid $500 for it.
Puts a GTO VIN from a rare option car. (RA IV?)
Now it's worth $90,000?
Which still isn't real bad but the guy sells it as a Real RA IV GTO numbers matching all original 10 miles on it.


That's illegal.



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Old 04-13-2021, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by shakerz View Post
Just watched Dan Short owner of FantomWorks Shop rebody a rusty 57 Chevy on Motortrend. Cut around serial number by a couple inches and bondo-ed and sanded and painted it.
NOW.. Do not jump to any conclusions that I do this with my cars just cause I posted this. I wouldn’t do it cause I don’t want the headache that could arise out of it. My issue has always been the guys yelling the loudest about how wrong it is are the ones doing it the most lol
My Vo Tech instructor did exactly what you're describing here, and was arrested in PA, and jailed back in the late 70s. He was later acquitted and charges were dropped. He did loose his job though, not certain if he got back wages, or not.

The whole thing is about fraud, and if changing numbers made you enriched from the act. In this particular instance it has swapping a cab on an older chevy truck because of rust. I believe it was easier to swap the cab than repair the old one. But he then would have to get a state issued VIN tag, which he didn't do. He cut the old one out and spliced it into the donor cab. It comes down to the prosecutors view if this was against the law, and if they want to enforce the law to the letter.

The truck was confiscated, and destroyed by the state in his case. The person who bought the truck was reimbursed for their purchase price by my previous teacher. He didn't do any jail time other than when he was arrested, and posted bond to be released. He essentially got a slap on the wrist. Now if the swapped cab came from a stolen truck, all this would have changed.

VIN numbers are a federal offense, if you want to roll the dice and hope your not caught, then that's your choice, and you live by your choice.

Block codes aren't a federal offense, that's more of an ethical thing. But it can become a case of fraud in a misrepresentation of facts. When people feel they got swindled, and didn't get what they paid for, is when these practices become fraudulent.

Many have heard a plea that I was just keeping up with traffic in defense of a speeding violation, it usually isn't considered a legal excuse in a court. The defense of, everyone else does it, isn't a defense in a court of law.

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Old 04-13-2021, 11:54 AM
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I haven’t heard any numbers like that except on Wheeler Dealers. That show seems stupid that way.
I haven’t seen Dan or Bitchin or Joe Martin say they give anything away. Maybe I missed it.


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Have you seen the dad and son who run Arizona’s largest old car salvage yard? Desert Junkyard or something close to that. I watched em rig a 69 gto together and grin like monkeys when it hammered about 1500 over cost.

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Old 04-13-2021, 12:58 PM
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VIN numbers are a federal offense, if you want to roll the dice and hope your not caught, then that's your choice, and you live by your choice.
This topic is always interesting and polarizing as another said earlier. But I can be scarcely convinced Ron rebodied that 57 on national TV without looking into it first. So rolling the dice? He’ll still be on tv next year doing what he’s doing. In my opinion the DOT doesn’t wanna mess with level 3 inspections. It seems like a pain in the ass for government employees , but I am very supportive of guys like you warning people not to do it. Last thing we need are a bunch of flaky shops with 20 wrenches in a shoe box turning coronets into chargers. My dad grew me up in the car business and I met a lot of sketchy characters then I started working with psychologists and counselors and realized I had been too hard on the car guys lol

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Old 04-13-2021, 02:28 PM
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Have you seen the dad and son who run Arizona’s largest old car salvage yard? Desert Junkyard or something close to that. I watched em rig a 69 gto together and grin like monkeys when it hammered about 1500 over cost.


No, I haven’t seen it. I’ll have to check it out for laughs.
I try to watch the ones where I might learn something. Bitchin, IR and Ian mainly. Love Enginemasters!

As far as the “rebody” goes, it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me to get a better 57 Chevy. Nothing to be gained by that., monetarily. When someone makes a car into something it isn’t, that’s when I think it’s a big deal.


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Old 04-13-2021, 03:18 PM
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Over the years I’ve been offered a 69 trans am firewall and title and a 69 judge RA4 firewall and title. I think they were priced around 2000 each time. I’ve always stayed away from that cause I don’t want the chance of an ordeal, especially as I get older. I don’t even argue with my wife anymore. I’ll agree with her and mix a drink and go to bed lol. Y’all remember Larry cooper who bought up all the west coast cars and moved them to Missouri. He sold out to an a-hole who mistakenly thought he bought a gold mine. When he realized he would have to be patient and sell parts while people were stealing from him at night, he had everything crushed. Anyway he had 4 rusty ass 69 T/As 25 or 30 years ago. Friend of mine bought one. I think the spring perches and rear frame rails had rusted through and the trunk floor collapsed onto the axle. Now it’s a rust free car in his moms garage that was born a base bird. I don’t have any hard feelings toward him but I know a lot of people would and that’s ok too. This is a very charged subject. Talking about changing as I get older, I used to buy everything I could get a good deal on cause I’ve got a bunch of Texas acreage to line it up on. I’ve sold lots of builders to members here., Now though there are two cars I won’t buy- 1. The car that’s been sitting outside for years with one or more glasses missing or hood off and 2. The car that’s been restored by a trans am puppy mill. Y’all know what I mean when I say you start to disassemble them and find pieces glued together, wiring a nightmare, rattle canned, and every unholy rigging that can be imagined. I’m just a middle of the road man of money means. I have a lot of friends here with the exquisite stone and mortar multi stall garages with man caves upstairs over 4 post lifts with mint restored low production cars on top and under every lift. Lotta these guys are relatively unknown. They don’t invite visitors or allow pictures. Some of the nicest guys you could ever meet though. I like them cause they usually have things like racks of twelve bolt axles and they don’t mind selling me a couple of their less pristine ones that may be a little pitted for a good price

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Old 04-13-2021, 03:40 PM
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Before my former auto mechanics instructor got charged with altering the VIN on that chevy truck, I thought that cutting the section from a junk vehicle and welding it onto a good vehicle was perfectly fine to do. Only when I saw him on the 6 O clock news being arrested and handcuffed was I aware that you weren't on the right side of the law.

After loosing his job as an instructor he turned to doing dirt moving, he owned a backhoe and a dump truck. I had him do some work for me that required a backhoe and of course we spoke about the incident.

Basically he did the wrong thing according to the law, and when he sold the truck to another person is when the VIN was discovered as being switched. The state police had to verify the VIN during the transaction and they got suspicious of the area surrounding the VIN plate. Upon investigating it they found that it was swapped, that triggered an investigation which pointed to him. Had he not sold the truck and just drove it, and junked it when it was worn out, he probably would have never been caught. The needed verification of the VIN during the sale was where the problem started.

There were no stolen parts used in the repairing of the truck, he told me if anything in the truck had come back stolen he would have been in real trouble. Stolen cars, and parts make this type of thing a whole bunch more serious.

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Old 04-13-2021, 06:46 PM
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Have you seen the dad and son who run Arizona’s largest old car salvage yard? Desert Junkyard or something close to that. I watched em rig a 69 gto together and grin like monkeys when it hammered about 1500 over cost.
Desert Car Kings.

I watched that episode back when that trash was being aired on TV. Saying the car was rigged is being generous, very very generous.

I sincerely hope the auctions those “restored” cars went to were purely made for tv fiction.

There was a thread on here several years ago discussing them, DCK, and it was not kind. lol

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Old 04-14-2021, 01:42 AM
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Yeah Sirrotica, there is no way to swap numbers and leave no proof. The firewall can be penetrated with radiology or digital imaging equipment, I’ve only heard of one high dollar car being torn down for a level 3 inspection. It was a Shelby and the story goes it was altered. I never heard if anyone was prosecuted.

Hello RMP, yeah what hacks those guys are. You are dead on. I remember commenting, as you said, that auction couldnt have been legit....there were around 20 people in the seats lol. Many years ago there was an Arizona salvage yard named Arizona Rust Free Trans Ams., it was massive.

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Old 04-15-2021, 02:18 AM
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OK.....different sex...same subject....

What about the "other" Bullet Mustang that was found in a Mexican junkyard a few years back.

As I understand it.....it is now fully restored......and I would venture a good guess that the only 2 pieces of the original car that were saved were the vin and cowl tags........No big secret that the shell was beyond rough...

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Old 04-15-2021, 05:25 AM
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OK.....different sex...same subject....

What about the "other" Bullet Mustang that was found in a Mexican junkyard a few years back.

As I understand it.....it is now fully restored......and I would venture a good guess that the only 2 pieces of the original car that were saved were the vin and cowl tags........No big secret that the shell was beyond rough...
You remember the line from Thunderbolt and Lightfoot - “”Somewhere in this country is a little old lady with 79.25. The 5 cents is a Buffalo nickel.”

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Last edited by shakerz; 04-15-2021 at 05:27 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 04-15-2021, 08:42 AM
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So where do you get the Vin when you buy one of these.
Let’s hope they never do a GTO body, as it is, there’s no Lemans left


https://realdealsteel.com/c-1105810-...-57-chevy.html

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Old 04-15-2021, 10:06 AM
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So where do you get the Vin when you buy one of these.
Let’s hope they never do a GTO body, as it is, there’s no Lemans left


https://realdealsteel.com/c-1105810-...-57-chevy.html
The correct way to do this is for the state, usually the state police, to inspect the vehicle. They will look at the parts receipts from the parts used to reconstruct the car to prove the parts came from legitimate sources (nothing is from a stolen car). They then issue a VIN plate and you're able to get a new title. Of course the title says "reconstructed" or "kit car" in some states on it, which in the classic car world usually devalues the car.

Everyone wants their cars to have legitimate factory titles, that's the reason for trying to sidestep the reconstructed titles, and why the reason VIN swaps are done, even though they usually aren't legal in the eyes of the law. It's all about money in the end. If you plan on selling the car at a future point, then you want a factory title, because the value is highest. If you plan to keep it, and drive it the title status is irrelevant.

The time of the transaction of a car, when a VIN is scrutinized by a LEO, that is when the VIN swap is usually exposed. As soon as someone feels they didn't get what was represented by the seller as a pristine car, the fecal matter hits the air circulator.

At one time I had a discussion of a friend that owns a wrecking yard, he theorized if you had a VIN swap on a stolen car, you could drive the car until it was junk, part it out, then pack it into a cube, recycle it and no one would be the wiser.

The trouble is uncovered when you try to sell the car, this is usually when stolen cars are uncovered by the new owners, or the LEO doing a VIN verification required in some states when a car changes ownership, or comes in from another state. A fifty year old car that has shiny rivets on the VIN plate, and has had new paint applied under the plate (not masked off) is a pretty good tipoff that something isn't as it should be. This is the time the seller, or owner, usually get a few questions from the officials.

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