[steve25]

What Tom points out in post # 16 about inlet restriction is seen also in the need for a air inlet radius lead in adapter when flow testing intake ports.

This is what I have found to be the minimum to not have high flow rate reductions take place and should be applied to the lead in of the pump pick up.

Keeping this same theme going a pickup should never be funnel shaped, it should be like the exit of a Trumpet,

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by slowbird

By increasing the feed size have you really increased much on the output side? The gear size in the pump dictates the volume moved per revolution does it not?
What exactly is being accomplished by increasing the feed size? Is the normal/stock size restrictive to the pump?

Like another member suggested call Luhn for the reason why it works.

If at 8000 rpm you do not have time to FULLY fill the spaces between the gear teeth then you are not pumping the highest volume of oil thru the engine for that given pump rpm. Having a proper inlet size allows the oil to fill those spaces between the gear teeth more efficiently.

If you are not filling the spaces properly with a stock height gear tooth set-up as produced by Melling for the Pontiac engine, then how can you expect to fill an even larger tooth volume (when using a BB Chevy "TALLER" gear set installed in the pump, for example. If you read the one post mentioning flow volumes the Pontiac gear set flows 13 gallons a minute and the BB Chevy parts flow 19 gallons a minute. This is Melling oil pump data.

By that same logic you are saying that you do not need a Titan Gerotor oil pump that many have installed in
their race engines.

Tom V.

I was always taught that one fact was worth one Thousand Opinions.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Like another member suggested call Luhn for the reason why it works.

If at 8000 rpm you do not have time to FULLY fill the spaces between the gear teeth then you are not pumping the highest volume of oil thru the engine for that given pump rpm. Having a proper inlet size allows the oil to fill those spaces between the gear teeth more efficiently.

If you are not filling the spaces properly with a stock height gear tooth set-up as produced by Melling for the Pontiac engine, then how can you expect to fill an even larger tooth volume (when using a BB Chevy "TALLER" gear set installed in the pump, for example. If you read the one post mentioning flow volumes the Pontiac gear set flows 13 gallons a minute and the BB Chevy parts flow 19 gallons a minute. This is Melling oil pump data.

By that same logic you are saying that you do not need a Titan Gerotor oil pump that many have installed in
their race engines.

Tom V.

I was always taught that one fact was worth one Thousand Opinions.

Not saying im right or wrong just that 8000rpm with melling pump showed zero signs of oiling issues in my engine.
Like i stated if someone can do these mods themselves or has the extra cash flow to pay for it great. But people need to weigh the cost vs benefit if they're on a budget. And again this is the street section not the race section.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Not saying im right or wrong just that 8000rpm with melling pump showed zero signs of oiling issues in my engine.

I am not saying you are wrong or right either, I am just saying you do your thing with your engine and let other people do their thing with their engine.

So how often does your dad or you buzz your engine up to 8000 rpm on the street? If you don't do that then what does a Drag Strip Mode of operation by you have to do with street operation?

Just wondering This thread is about engine oil pump mods that worked for some. Same deal with aftermarket cylinder heads, why install them if it is a "STREET" car?

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

In talking to Mark about this stuff he thought this was a reason why peoples engines blow up and they never figure out with 100% certainty what caused it.
Like Steve C posted, it has shown up in his data logger and when he used Luhns pump the issue went away. Simple record-able data.

[firechicken]

Is this pump going into a street car engine?

[Tom Vaught]

If the car doesn't have a cage in it that allows 10 second runs or quicker then it probably could be called a street car considering there are a bunch of Mopar and Ford "Street Cars" that could run in the very low 11 second range with their street engines and no cage.

A street car that can run in the low 11s and be driven often needs a good oil system as much as a week-end race car.

There used to be a super street class at one time years ago where the cars had to drive 30 miles on the street prior to racing, some of those "street cars" could run in the 7.50 range in 1998. "Street Car Engine" is a very generic term in my opinion. But back to Oil Pump mods for engines for durability.

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

In talking to Mark about this stuff he thought this was a reason why peoples engines blow up and they never figure out with 100% certainty what caused it.
Like Steve C posted, it has shown up in his data logger and when he used Luhns pump the issue went away. Simple record-able data.

If an engine blew up due to an oiling issue wouldn't the bearings show signs of oil starvation?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by firechicken

Is this pump going into a street car engine?

Its a pump gas 461 that will be raced, 700 HP range. It will probably end up a street engine with HO heads on it down the road.
I put this in the Street Section to get a wider base of people who want to be helpful or want to be helped.
Also, thought there was a better chance of getting away from a negative pot stirrer, that part did not work.
The pump will end up on a pretty badd @$$ little 461.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by steve25

What Tom points out in post # 16 about inlet restriction is seen also in the need for a air inlet radius lead in adapter when flow testing intake ports.

This is what I have found to be the minimum to not have high flow rate reductions take place and should be applied to the lead in of the pump pick up.

Keeping this same theme going a pickup should never be funnel shaped, it should be like the exit of a Trumpet,

I just took a 1 1/4" chunk of shaft and drilled a 13/16" hole in it the pickup tube can fit in. So I had it in the lathe and I took a die grinder and started to form the Trumpet outlet. Which will be a inlet.
I can use a 2" section of 1 1/2" square tube in the place of my 1" pipe. That way I can get the radius where I want it.

Or just do something like Scott did. But that bent section of the pipe is a little pit smaller on the inside after they bend it, not much.

I am using a milled 1/4" bottom plate I bought from Nightmare on the pump. You need to as the cast plate has recessed holes for screws and I need a bolt for the hold down strap.

[Dragncar]

The bent section would get the cone pickup in the right location but getting it 8 1/8" from the pan rail would be a pain.

Notice that little ridge you can see in the Melling pump housing after it is bored out for the larger pickup. It will need addressed.
I have a Dyna gear 80 psi pump and that ridge is not there. Those pumps have steel gears vs the Mellings cast gears. Not available anymore.

[Scott Stoneburg]

Here is a side by side comparison between the stock pick up tube diameter (.625) vs the larger (.875) tube. It roughly 30% larger. I am fairly sure that the tube Dragncar used is the same diameter.

[Dragncar]

Tom V, I have a question about the Nightmare plate for the pump. I put a picture of it up before and a PY member PMed me saying those little groves kill the hydrodynamic wedge, oil film between the gears and pump plate. He was very sure of himself.
I think he was from Australia and a engineer of some sort.
The groves would cut down the surface area between the gears and pump that is for sure.
This guy told me I would be better off with a plate without the groves. Nightmare does sell that version but this one is the "upgraded" version so I thought I was getting the best one.

Thanks for any help.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Scott Stoneburg

Here is a side by side comparison between the stock pick up tube diameter (.625) vs the larger (.875) tube. It roughly 30% larger. I am fairly sure that the tube Dragncar used is the same diameter.

The picture you put up does not enlarge when clicked on.

[73 TRANSAM]

The grooves on the plate acts as an oil reservoir and when the pumps internal pressure builds up it creates an oil film in the middle. This way the gears doesn't dig up on the plate. That's the better choice. Good luck with your build. I made one in the past that looked tricked but I ended up scrapping it as I milled out the pump outlet pad in an angle and was hitting the crankshaft. There goes my couple of days of work.

[Scott Stoneburg]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

The picture you put up does not enlarge when clicked on.

Thats odd. Not sure why or what went wrong. I had to just zoom in my phone screen but the picture get grainy when i did that.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Tom V, I have a question about the Nightmare plate for the pump. I put a picture of it up before and a PY member PMed me saying those little groves kill the hydrodynamic wedge, oil film between the gears and pump plate. He was very sure of himself.
I think he was from Australia and a engineer of some sort.
The groves would cut down the surface area between the gears and pump that is for sure.
This guy told me I would be better off with a plate without the groves. Nightmare does sell that version but this one is the "upgraded" version so I thought I was getting the best one.

Thanks for any help.

I have to agree with the gentleman from Australia, for these reasons:

1) A stock oil pump with any end play will try to force oil from the high pressure (outlet) side of the pump to the low pressure (inlet) side of the pump. It does this by lifting the gears and creating a hydrodynamic wedge, oil film between the gears, the pump plate, and the pump housing.

2) When you machine in the narrow circular oil race track in the cover plate between the high pressure side and the low pressure side, you just created a leak path that does not have the ability to lift the gears and have a uniform film across the bottom and the top of the gear set. The oil pump people put that clearance between the height of the internal pump and the height of the gears so that the gears "float in the middle" with a slight amount of leakage.

3) When you put in the machined circles you made a LARGER leakage point at
the top of the gears and actually reduced the overall amount of oil going to the engine.

YOU WANT THE GEARS TO FLOAT BETWEEN THE TWO PARTS OF THE OIL PUMP, "THE MACHINED POCKET" AND THE GEAR COVER.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

Thanks Tom. I have 2 other cast plates. The one on the left is new and does not have the grove . Center is stamped steel and the one on the right is slightly used but has the oil grove under the driven gear.
Is that oil slot any big deal ?
Thanks.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I have to agree with the gentleman from Australia, for these reasons:

1) A stock oil pump with any end play will try to force oil from the high pressure (outlet) side of the pump to the low pressure (inlet) side of the pump. It does this by lifting the gears and creating a hydrodynamic wedge, oil film between the gears, the pump plate, and the pump housing.

2) When you machine in the narrow circular oil race track in the cover plate between the high pressure side and the low pressure side, you just created a leak path that does not have the ability to lift the gears and have a uniform film across the bottom and the top of the gear set. The oil pump people put that clearance between the height of the internal pump and the height of the gears so that the gears "float in the middle" with a slight amount of leakage.

3) When you put in the machined circles you made a LARGER leakage point at
the top of the gears and actually reduced the overall amount of oil going to the engine.

YOU WANT THE GEARS TO FLOAT BETWEEN THE TWO PARTS OF THE OIL PUMP, "THE MACHINED POCKET" AND THE GEAR COVER.

Tom V.

This is very interesting and makes one wonder why Nightmare Performance did this mod?

"Our 'Pro Oil pump Plate' has all the same features as our Standard Plate, but includes two (2) .045 deep by .045 wide oil grooves cut into the top of the plate. These oil grooves are centered right under the oil pump's drive and coast gears for superior lubrication." http://www.nitemareperformance.com/p...pumpplate.html

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by grivera

This is very interesting and makes one wonder why Nightmare Performance did this mod?

"Our 'Pro Oil pump Plate' has all the same features as our Standard Plate, but includes two (2) .045 deep by .045 wide oil grooves cut into the top of the plate. These oil grooves are centered right under the oil pump's drive and coast gears for superior lubrication." http://www.nitemareperformance.com/p...pumpplate.html

Just because someone does something to a part to make it unique and possible sell better is a marketing tool for the unknowing.

I have posted in the past about the Holley Study in the 1970s where employees bought aftermarket Holley "modified" carbs from 30 sources, (without the sellers being aware their parts were being evaluated by Holley.
Each carb was inspected, tested on a Holley Flow Bench, and tested on the engine dyno.
THREE carbs out of 30 were a couple of horsepower better vs the factory Holley carbs out of the boxes.
The rest did not make the higher power advertised and the "Mods" did nothing except get the customers money.

So I am well aware of the "Trick of the Week" marketing of some companies.

Just the FACTS that I know, along with working with one of the smartest Oil Systems Engineers in Ford Research.
I go by her knowledge, not by advertising. That is a fact.

Tom V.