[PAUL K]

If the lifter ground down like the one on my picture the failure is related to a soft lifter... Lifter issues popped up around 1990 due to Corporate cost cuts, then continued on. They wore out all of the excuses and finally most folks figured out the lifter manufactures (actually bottom line profits) were to blame. This was after Chevrolet had a slew of failures in the 80's.


IMO you could still be in a better situation than if you went with a HR set up.... When those go they can take the block out with them. So you still have a good block and you saved a bunch of dough over the HR set up.


Good luck with the next go around. Now is the time to improve on the cam choice if there were any short comings with the last cam.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

I recently read an article in Hemmings Muscle Machines about using proper break in oil, especially for flat tappet cams. Most people know you should not use standard auto parts store oil for an engine with flat tappet lifters. For a flat tappet cam you need an oil that has a high ZDDP additive package to protect the cam and lifters not only during break in but throughout the life of the engine. There are a few different companies that offer this oil that has the high ZDDP levels to protect flat tappet cams. For those who may not know oil now days is formulated for fuel economy and catalytic converters, the higher ZDDP additive package significantly reduces the life of the catalytic converter which is another reason they took most of the ZDDP out of the oil. The modern engines have closer tolerances are are made to run on thinner oil. For my wife's Toyota RAV 4, Toyota says she must use 0-16w oil. All modern cars also run roller lifters and they don't have the extreme high pressure metal to metal contact of a flat tappet cam so it's ok to lower the ZDDP package. Now here is the detail that most people get wrong. For break in, especially for a flat tappet engine you need to us NON-DETERGENT break in oil. If you get the good oil with the extra ZDDP but it's not specifically non-detergent break in oil the detergents in the oil wash away the ZDDP at the most critical time during the first few minutes during cam and lifter break in. So make sure you use the right break in oil and also use a high ZDDP formulated oil for the life of the engine. You won't find this oil at Autozone, or O'Rileleys of NAPA, or Walmart either. Don't use diesel oil in your car as the type of ZDDP additives for a diesel engine is not the same additive. There are two basic types of ZDDP a fast acting and a slow acting, oil formulated for diesel engine uses the slow acting ZDDP and it doesn't provide the same level of protection for a gas engine with flat tappet cams. I'm no expert, this is coming from the article and personally I take it as good advice. While were talking about flat tappet cams most people know there is a specific break in procedure for flat tappet cams. The cam lobes and lifter face are not pressure oiled like the rest of the engine is and rely on splash oiling from the crankshaft. That is why you need to get the engine started right off no excessive cranking because the carb was not primed or the timing isn't right, and you don't let it idle during break in. You need to keep the RPM between 1500 and 2000 RPM for the first 20 minutes. if your engine is getting too hot or you need to make adjustments it's OK to shut if off and continue when everything is right. One more thing, valve spring pressure, if it's too high that's enough to destroy the ca/lifer during break in and it might not show up right away. Most failure is at break in and you might not know it until it continues to wear away to a point that it's really knocking on your door telling you something ain't right. Beware of running high lift long duration flat tappet cams, in most cases if your going that direction hyd roller may be a better choice. For mild performance cams like the 068 for example flat tappet may work fine. Butler Performance will build you a complete engine but they won't build an engine with a flat tappet cam. Hmmmm seems there is a message in there some place.

Just an FYI on this, modern oils still have close to 90% of what older oils had for zddp, old oil was about 1300 ppm zddp, most name brand modern oils have 900-1000ppm, which is plenty of zddp for most stock to mild FT cams. However, there are other modern additives like moly that handle extreme pressures of FT cam/lifters, as well as newer advanced zddp that lasts longer than the older type so not as much is needed which allows lowered levels, valvoline explains this in their FAQ section.
Adding a bunch of zddp additive, can cause other problems as explained in many oil articles and one very good article that was posted recently on another thread here. Stock-mild cams that are already broken in do not need special high zddp oils, most are "race" type oils like VR1. I have been running ~.480 lift cams on good regular oil for over 20 years with no cam/lifter or other engine problems at all.

Also, oil detergents dont "wash away" zddp, zddp is in the oil and is always circulating to parts, high detergent may wash the oil iteself off some parts or not stick to parts as well, but the zddp is still there doing its job.

Some of these specialty oils are available at auto zone or many other places, even walmart, but again, there is no reason or benefit to using a race type oil with super high zddp for a stock or smaller size cam, modern oils have plenty of zddp both new & old types as well as other anti wear additives to compensate for slightly lowered amounts... plus all modern oils have far better base stock oils than even 15 years ago, with a better base stock oil not as many wear additives are needed. Use a break in oil or a good regular oil with an additive specifically designed for FT cam break in like comp, crane or lucas, then run whatever good brand oil you like after break in... if you want to run race oil in your mostly stock engine thats fine too but its overkill & not needed for this situation.

My personal experience is I have used regular oils both synthetic & conventional in pontiac engines with stock cams as well as what I consider mild cams with around .480 lift, I drive 2 of them regularly, 1 is almost 15 years old with a comp XE .480 lift cam, other is the original cam/internals on a turbo 301, also had a 455 back in the 90's that had the snot beat out of it daily for close to 80k+ miles, pulled the motor after crashing the car & cam lifters looked like new, sold the cam/lifters to a guy who ran it for many years after. Also had a jeep 4.0 with a FT cam about the same size as smaller stock pontiac cams, drove that on the cheapest oil & spin on filters i could find on sale for 15+ years & over 200k miles, sold it 5 years ago & still see it driving around town today. Both cars have lots of harder street miles & some drag strip time.

All that on regular modern oils that " took most of the zddp out of the oil"... also used diesel oil in the 400 for many years without any issues at all, people have been using diesel oils for 20+ years in these cars with zero problems related to fast or slow acting zddp.

Just wanted to provide some accurate info on some of the false statements that still get repeated regarding modern oils or stock cams needing crazy high levels of zddp or race oils. The quality of lifters and making sure the break in process is done right are the main factors in a successful cam break in. The combo of oil or additives is important too but there are many options for that, I used good regular oil & the comp cam break in additive with great results, some just use normal oil & a can of STP or GM EOS.

Edit- Found the oil article I mentioned, its kinda long but covers many aspects of oil viscosity, base oils & zddp additives. "Kenth" posted this on another thread. https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

[MrArt2u]

I really appreciate all the good advice and information thank you guys. I was relieved that the first suggestions were budget friendly hydraulic flat tappet (the 068 Melling SPC-7 camshaft.) I know there are hundreds of thousands of cars with millions of miles with that technology so I'm not afraid to try them again.

I do like roller rocker technology for all the above mentioned reasons and I'd love to hear more real life experiences converting Pontiacs to rollers. Are you happy with the conversion? is the valvetrain noise excessive? Do you still like your idle exhaust note? ( I installed a roller cam crate SBC in my '58 pick up. 400 hp on their dyno, humms like a sewing machine. No personality, I miss the lopey idle!)

For Nitrided cams, do the lifters have to be Nitrided as well? Has anyone done this? Formulajones, who makes a lifter with the direct lube option? My wife's tiny MG motor has an aftermarket rifle drilled, cross drilled camshaft that provides lube to the lifters via the cam lobes. Not factory at all but it makes me sleep better.

Going back to why this may have happened, I have a windage tray on this motor. Do I need it? Does it limit the oil splash that I hear lubricates the camshaft? And I also don't have the "drippers" (?) that bolt on the head and sit over the rocker arms. I have factory chrome 1964 valve covers (with a spacer to clear the rockers) Could that have led to the failure?

[MrArt2u]

Here's a look at the failed number 7 exhaust lifter.

[dataway]

Wow ... with that much wear I'd guess the lifter/lobe failed the moment it was first started. Probably wasn't rotating from the get-go.

Any lifter issues I've had have usually been with cylinder 6 or 8.

[78w72]

Hard to prove why the lifter failed, could be any of the common reasons like bad lifter/cam metal. less than ideal break in process and slowly over 4000 miles it went bad. wrong rocker arm adjustment. sitting so long with dry starts & short run time causing water & fuel dilution to the oil. or a combination of things.

The windage tray shouldnt hinder oil splash to the cam, v/c drippers are only for rocker oiling. You dont really need the windage tray if you use a baffled pan, especially on a lower rpm street cruiser, if the pan is non baffled then keep the tray but have it inspected for cracks.

The roller lifter noise was or is associated with certain brands or types of lifters, mostly the early 1st gen comp 857 lifters, i had a set that made a slight ticking sound when hot similar to rhodes lifters, i replaced them with the 2nd gen comp 857-s lifter that are very quiet running the suggested 10/30 oil, only have very minor tick when engine is fully heat soaked & ran hard on a hot day, but is hardly noticeable over the exhaust noise. Comp & other brands have newer gen lifters now that are supposed to be much better than the old ones.

The added cost of a roller cam is about double of a high quality FT set up but is worth the peace of mind of FT failures IMO... yes roller lifters can go bad too but it is very rare when compared to FT cam failures. For a street cruiser a FT cam is probably the best option.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by dataway

Wow ... with that much wear I'd guess the lifter/lobe failed the moment it was first started. Probably wasn't rotating from the get-go...

Hopefully the lifter bore is good.

[jhein]

I don't know. The extra cost for a HR vs HFT is probably about $1500 more for the cam, lifters, rockers and valley pan. If you have a HFT failure and you're able to identify that before the motor is in the car that will still cost you more than $1500. Way, way more than that if it's back in the car. And, sure, if you do all the work yourself, it won't be as much money but a lot of extra work. And, if you did a HFT and let's say it failed during break in, would you feel comfortable, redoing it with another HFT, or would you be more likely to go HR? All of those factors are probably why Butler and other builders won't do HFTs anymore.

[MarkS57]

Originally Posted by MrArt2u

Here's a look at the failed number 7 exhaust lifter.

Yikes , agree, seems something was amiss early on. Those lifters look like the ones from 1983 in my post below.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=841743

I'm running these right now with a Summit 2801 cam. Very quiet. My go to is JGR Driven Assembly Grease & Comp cams break in oil.

[MrArt2u]

I know how the lifter got *that bad*-my one bonehead fault! (valuable lesson below) But I don't know what caused it to start failing in the first place. The motor was built 20 years ago and it did spend a lot of time parked but it had been great since I started driving it regularly in the summer of 2020. Long bonehad story below:

My wife and I were out on a slow neighborhood cruise one afternoon and I heard what sounded like a tire going flat but I could tell it was engine speed related so I eased it back home. Listening carefully under the hood I pinpointed the sound to the passenger valve cover. I popped off the valve cover, found the #7 exhaust rocker quite loose and figured the valves just needed adjustment (too much time around little British cars, I'd say.) So BONEHEAD ME, I adjusted all of them, and *thought* something was strange about how much I had to adjust that particular rocker. (Hindsight, I should have known something was really wrong right then and there) But the engine fired up and sounded normal again. That night we took the L.A. freeways 20 miles to get ice cream, even cruised the Bob's Big Boy Friday night car gathering on the way home, all was great. In the morning we took it 15 miles uphill on the freeway to a cars and coffee and I thought I heard the sound coming back so after the meet we took the streets back . The sound definitely came back, slightly louder than it was the first time I heard it. As I was pretty much idleing it back down the hill, I gave it just a hint of gas to get around a cyclist and BAM that lifter must have really given up right there. It sounded like a big explosion with every revolution. I immediately shut off the motor and coasted to a stop. I pulled the valve cover, had my wife fire it up and could see that rocker not rocking. Pulled the pushrod and it was straight as an arrow so I knew it was cam lobe or lifter, Called AAA, towed her home and here we are today.

So, lesson for anyone reading this in the future, if your rocker arm is way out of adjustment and it's not because your rocker nut has backed off, stop right there, it's probably a bad lifter.

[4dblnkldude]

Damn, good advice. I just broke in a summit 2801 on Saturday/. I used comp lifters I had from 20 years ago though.

[ID67goat]

Originally Posted by 4dblnkldude

Damn, good advice. I just broke in a summit 2801 on Saturday/. I used comp lifters I had from 20 years ago though.

Did you pull inner springs or do anything special during break in? I will need to break in an SPC-8 cam soon….

[i82much]

i wiped a cam on a sbc years ago, just changed the cam, lifters, and oil .... drove it for several more years and never noticed an issue ... oil pressure was good and the car ran great.

probably just got lucky ....

[Dick Boneske]

I"ve had a few cam failures, beginning with my '57 Olds in 1962. Nearly all '57 Old's cams failed due to excessive spring pressure from the factory. Also my '64 GTO in the mid '70's and my '77 400 in a Grand Safari wagon. In each case, I replaced the cam & lifters and ran the engines for many thousands of miles.

When a lifter or cam fails, isn't it logical that the metal chips go directly to the oil pan? Some will get lodged in the pump inlet screen, some will get captured in the oil filter. Does a cam failure always call for engine disassembly, cleaning of the oil galleries and replacement of main and rod bearings? My guess is that thousands of cams/lifters have failed and were replaced without an engine teardown.

Opinions?

[dataway]

First cam I installed on my engine a few years ago (Melling 068, Johnson Lifters) I had one lifter not turning on the stand during breakin. Immediately bought a new Melling 068 and a set of Melling lifters ... next attempt went fine, and still seems fine with very low mileage on it.

When I tore down the original engine with 100k miles on it, all the OEM lifters were dished, one so bad it was starting to wear through the bottom of the lifter ... car ran fine, and didn't even make noise. It was well maintained and I knew the previous (original) owner.

Originally Posted by jhein

I don't know. The extra cost for a HR vs HFT is probably about $1500 more for the cam, lifters, rockers and valley pan. If you have a HFT failure and you're able to identify that before the motor is in the car that will still cost you more than $1500. Way, way more than that if it's back in the car. And, sure, if you do all the work yourself, it won't be as much money but a lot of extra work. And, if you did a HFT and let's say it failed during break in, would you feel comfortable, redoing it with another HFT, or would you be more likely to go HR? All of those factors are probably why Butler and other builders won't do HFTs anymore.

[lust4speed]

I'd say that #7 was leading the pack and failed first but would also bet that the remaining 15 lifters and lobes are all showing varying stages of failure.

Seat pressure isn't what kills flat tappet assemblies and base circles of the cam after a failure usually looks pretty normal. It's the open pressure that wears the lifter and failure point is the nose of the cam. Not all springs are created equal and you can have satisfactory seat pressure but the spring rate might result in too high of open pressure. Using stock length valves and stock installed heights really requires that the correct spring be used and not something on steroids. My target is usually around 115 pounds on the seat and 260 open for a mild flat tappet like the 068. It is easy for some strong springs with higher lobe lifts to be around 350 open and that can spell a quick failure.

Life would be easy if the lobe and lifter produced chips large enough to not go through the pump screen, but the particles form a type of slurry that passes right through the screen and pump. A good filter catches most of the crud and bearings don't usually look that bad. I've found the main hiding place for the garbage is in the ring lands and the wrist pin area of piston and rod. Proper cleanup can be really tedious.

My favorite lifter is the Crower Cam Saver hydraulic flat tappet lifter where they have added a slot down the side to increase lubrication. Lifters are made by Johnson for Crower.

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

I'd say that #7 was leading the pack and failed first but would also bet that the remaining 15 lifters and lobes are all showing varying stages of failure.

Seat pressure isn't what kills flat tappet assemblies and base circles of the cam after a failure usually looks pretty normal. It's the open pressure that wears the lifter and failure point is the nose of the cam. Not all springs are created equal and you can have satisfactory seat pressure but the spring rate might result in too high of open pressure. Using stock length valves and stock installed heights really requires that the correct spring be used and not something on steroids. My target is usually around 115 pounds on the seat and 260 open for a mild flat tappet like the 068. It is easy for some strong springs with higher lobe lifts to be around 350 open and that can spell a quick failure.

Life would be easy if the lobe and lifter produced chips large enough to not go through the pump screen, but the particles form a type of slurry that passes right through the screen and pump. A good filter catches most of the crud and bearings don't usually look that bad. I've found the main hiding place for the garbage is in the ring lands and the wrist pin area of piston and rod. Proper cleanup can be really tedious.

My favorite lifter is the Crower Cam Saver hydraulic flat tappet lifter where they have added a slot down the side to increase lubrication. Lifters are made by Johnson for Crower.

I’ve been considering the cam saver lifters over the Hylift Johnson’s but there’s no mention anywhere that the Crower lifters are made in the USA so I’m hesitant to purchase them.

[dataway]

I wonder how many HFT failures were using stock grind cams, or modern replicas of stock grind cams, as opposed to modern profile cams.

If you filter out high performance cams and high spring pressures I wonder what the failure rate would be.

I'm curious .... did high performance cams of 40 years ago use similar profiles to modern HFT cams, or are modern cams more abusive to the valve train?

[Formulas]

Originally Posted by dataway

I wonder how many HFT failures were using stock grind cams, or modern replicas of stock grind cams, as opposed to modern profile cams.

If you filter out high performance cams and high spring pressures I wonder what the failure rate would be.

I'm curious .... did high performance cams of 40 years ago use similar profiles to modern HFT cams, or are modern cams more abusive to the valve train?

There were failures long ago .... in 1983 i bought a 1970 espirit bird 350 4speed it ran ok but letting out the clutch i could feel a uneveness in the power did all the tune up stuff then got to watching rocker arms while running .... turned out the original 254 cam had 3 still operational but shaved lobes and concave lifters and the 254 cam has even less lift than std 4bbl cams


HP cams have had a sort of stepped evolution XE. was a step then a group before that and then 60s to early 80s time frame roughly each new generation has pushed lobe intensity higher in search of more overall torque and this stresses out the fragile lobe and lifter dance

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by jhein

I don't know. The extra cost for a HR vs HFT is probably about $1500 more for the cam, lifters, rockers and valley pan. If you have a HFT failure and you're able to identify that before the motor is in the car that will still cost you more than $1500. Way, way more than that if it's back in the car. And, sure, if you do all the work yourself, it won't be as much money but a lot of extra work. And, if you did a HFT and let's say it failed during break in, would you feel comfortable, redoing it with another HFT, or would you be more likely to go HR? All of those factors are probably why Butler and other builders won't do HFTs anymore.

What does a roller failure look like? It takes the block with it usually. Ask 64speed.

Butler would see a slightly better profit matgin selling the roller upgrade by a country mile. 1.5:1 on a roller or 1.65:1 on a FT there's more than one way to grease a pig.