#21  
Old 09-09-2020, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 1969400HO View Post
We spend HOW MUCH on Coffee in One month??
I won’t touch anyones personal car for less than $250-300 on anything!
I charge my customer $440 an hour for my decades of hard earned skills.

How Much you spend a Month on COFFEE? ? ?
I don't drink coffee, so that would be 0. What does coffee consumption have to do with hourly labor on an automobile?

Good thing you don't have your customer base on PY, you'd starve.

Are those flat rate hours, or actual hours, as in total time spent per job?

If you changed the OPs headers at $440 per hour it would only be $1540 for 3.5 hours labor. I'm certain shop supplies, and parts would be on top of that figure.

NC, the exhaust shop is way cheap when you look at it from that standpoint, better jump on that $350 estimate....J/K............


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  #22  
Old 09-10-2020, 02:57 PM
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with all the response .Did you hire someone ? Or do the job yourself ?

  #23  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:15 PM
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"'How Much you spend a Month on COFFEE? ? ?””

Is a phrase use by some practical thinkers that implies money & time wasted on “other stuff”, that DON’T enhance or add to the “purposed cause” of things.

Waste $ 350 a month on coffee -candies-beer-drugs- sweets- junk foods- but Balk about a lasting productive 350 to do engine work!

DOESN’T Makes great logic.

NOBODY in the Pontiac society is innocent on this Point!!

  #24  
Old 09-17-2020, 01:40 AM
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Met my buddy at the transmission shop tonight. His boss lets him moonlight after hours and use the lifts. When he started doing side work I told him to be sure to kick something back to his boss for every job to stay in his good graces and never take a transmission job without the boss's OK (they always turn down performance transmission work).

It took us just over 45 minutes to remove and reinstall the headers working at a normal pace. For you non-engineers out there, a normal pace the speed at which you deal cards playing poker. Using air ratchets, We each worked a side to remove, double teamed the reinstall from underneath, then split each to a side to tighten the bolts with short extensions. I use the Mr. Gasket combo bolts which have a hex head and allen screw recess. I used the allen screw adaptor that came with the bolts and my buddy used his own on the for the middle tubes and standard sockets for the outers.

I use Percy's dead soft aluminum header and collector flange gaskets so no retorque is necessary. I could have reused the existing but I didn't. While the headers were off I painted the sides of the motor to complete my detailing project. Initial cool-down and painting was in addition to the 45 minutes, so a total of 1.5 man hours to R&R the headers. That's a long way from $350 like I said.

As I mentioned, the FlowTech Headers fit with room to spare and require no nonsense. I got about 15 years form the old ones which were just starting to show light surface rust at the welds through the Ceramic coating.

I threw my buddy $100 for his help and gave him my old headers to clean up and put on the boss's Grandville since one of his manifolds had a crack in it.

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  #25  
Old 09-17-2020, 07:22 PM
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Nice car you have there. I’ve Been thinking about installing a new set of headers on my 71 GTO.. Do you have the part number on those? They sound like they fit really well. Thanks!

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  #26  
Old 09-18-2020, 11:47 PM
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Here you go: Flowtech 31170FLT Long Tube Headers

I bought mine from the Holley eBay store for $229.00 plus $8.00 shipping listed as scratch and dent. They were brand new in the box with no defects.



Can you tell we each worked on a side? lol.
I did the passenger side and always clock the flange with flat side down for ground clearance. I had to change his side.

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  #27  
Old 09-19-2020, 07:45 PM
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1969

  #28  
Old 09-20-2020, 10:00 AM
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Awesome, thanks! Have you ever had any clearance issues with the brake proportioning valve, reverse linkage, oil filter etc?

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  #29  
Old 09-21-2020, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holeshot71 View Post
Awesome, thanks! Have you ever had any clearance issues with the brake proportioning valve, reverse linkage, oil filter etc?
Can't say on the linkage as mine's an automatic.

I originally eliminated the prop valve bracket and moved the valve rearward mounting directly to the frame to clear the headers when I was running front disc only. It was that way when I bought the car. I just had to open up a mounting hole on the new prop valve body slightly to align with the holes already in the frame from the bracket. When I converted to 4 wheel disc, I moved the proportioning valve up under the master cylinder anyway as that was how the disc brake lines were routed from Inline Tube.

Oil filter is accessible through a nice window in the header tube arrangement though.

This is the only pic I have of the relocated proportioning valve setup with the original set of headers. That's a battery cable (starter) hanging in between temporarily during the install. so the clearance is about 1/2" there.


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Last edited by NeighborsComplaint; 09-21-2020 at 09:55 PM.
  #30  
Old 09-22-2020, 10:43 PM
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Had a feeling the valve needed to be moved some. I’ve yet to see a set of headers that aren’t tight in that area. Thanks again for the info/pics.

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  #31  
Old 09-24-2020, 09:16 AM
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Those headers are 1.625" tubes, just to say....

.

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  #32  
Old 09-24-2020, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
I have 4 sets of the identical Hooker Super Comps -ALL 4 sets fit different need BFH "massaging" in different spots! I've put these same header in an out a number of times on my 78 TA and the Camaro/Pontiac and it sure is longer than an hour even just a repeat of a set already massaged!
Yup. And I have personally experienced this with Headman and Doug's too.



.

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  #33  
Old 09-24-2020, 10:32 AM
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I spent an hour just re-bolting up a driver side header the other day. It wasn't even removed. Just unbolted to remove a lower A-arm bolt. Nothing fun about it

  #34  
Old 09-24-2020, 11:35 AM
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FWIW, removing the motor mount and raising whichever side your working on as high as possible, simplifies the job somewhat. Tilting, and raising the engine, gives much better access to the bolts, well worth the time to remove the motor mount bolt. I usually prefer rolling the engine from one side as opposed to raising it in the middle. Those couple degrees of tilt make a difference.

Does it make it easy? No, but it makes an unpleasant chore a little more palatable.

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100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated

  #35  
Old 09-26-2020, 06:25 PM
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A shop would have to bill 2 people working for 1.5 hours on the same job as 3 man hours labor, if they want to make payroll and stay in business.
Still that’s a pretty good time for getting that job done and you know it was done right.

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  #36  
Old 09-27-2020, 12:26 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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I do some of this type of work at my shop. I charge time and material for these jobs, actual time spent doing the job. On this job, two factors would greatly effect the cost. Is the customer OK with me destroying the old headers to remove? If he is OK, that cuts the total time by 1/3-1/2. I would go in with a Sawsall, cut every tube near the flange and remove the tubes. That would take 1/2 hour for both sides. Then you can use 6 point sockets to remove the header bolts instead of wrenches. Then clean up the head surface, antisieze the new bolts and install the new ones. Best case scenerio, it would take me 1 1/2 hours to 2 hours to do a nice job and connect the collectors. If they are at $125.00 an hour which is typical for independent shops around here, that would be $200-250 minimum. If the customer wanted the old headers returned in usable condition, add an hour. 3 hours@ 125.00 an hour, $375.00. Sounds about right to me.

Just found your post with how you did the job with a friend. It's great to have friends? Your car looks to have had nice old headers and not rusted to death hardware. So my first line would apply. Time and materials. If I could get the old stuff out and the new installed properly in an hour, you would be charged an hour, simple as that. The last set I did was on a Jeep CJ-5 that had been sitting for 20 years with an AMC 343 engine. Took 3 hours, he was charged 3 hours.


Last edited by mgarblik; 09-27-2020 at 12:41 PM.
  #37  
Old 09-27-2020, 01:49 PM
MartyVi MartyVi is offline
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45 minutes. On what planet? Yes for 2 people with a lift and tools at your disposal. But what if a bolt was stubborn? He’s running a business with big overhead such as insurance for worker liability. If your buddy got hurt doing this side job I wonder who would pay his bills if he couldn’t work. No workman’s comp! Apples to Oranges your scenario.


Last edited by MartyVi; 09-27-2020 at 01:59 PM.
  #38  
Old 10-08-2020, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyVi View Post
45 minutes. On what planet? Yes for 2 people with a lift and tools at your disposal. But what if a bolt was stubborn? He’s running a business with big overhead such as insurance for worker liability. If your buddy got hurt doing this side job I wonder who would pay his bills if he couldn’t work. No workman’s comp! Apples to Oranges your scenario.
The mechanics are contractors, not employees and are responsible for their own insurance. They sign a waiver releasing the shop and owner from responsibility for injury. Might/might not hold up in court but the guy has done it that way forever and never has been named in any legal action.

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  #39  
Old 10-08-2020, 06:59 PM
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IRS does not go for employees being "independent contractors" if they do not set their own hours and use all their own tools/equipment.

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  #40  
Old 10-11-2020, 01:00 AM
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Yeah. He owns the building, lifts, compressor, parts washers and trans case washer. The mechanics furnish their own hand and air tools. It's a fine line but he has managed to survive a couple audits over the years and luckily has had no accidents to test the legalities.

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