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Old 09-04-2019, 09:14 PM
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Default EFI fuel line size

What is the typical size supply AND return needed for an EFI/supercharged engine making under 1000HP? What are some of the good fuel pumps? They are usually going to be in the tank too, correct?

I have a 2013 CTSV making 650 HP and the line size isn't all that big and I assume the higher PSI of the fuel system may offset some of the need of a larger line?

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Old 09-04-2019, 09:32 PM
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Default SS pre-bent EFI fuel lines

Anything over 750 Hp boosted we run a 1/2" SS pre-bent factory feed and depending on the power level and some other factors we will either use a 3/8" or 1/2" SS pre-bent return line. This is based on pump gas fuel. E85 in our opinion goes directly to 1/2" SS.

The SS lines are readily available for most vehicles and are maintenance free. We add the proper high pressure fittings to the ends to mate it to Teflon lined AN soft lines.

Our opinion, ease of use, safe, reliable and maintenance free, the customer always wins.

Start adding up soft lines, fittings and labor to make it all and the SS lines are cheap.

I believe Doug down in SC has a shop that will even make pre-bent lines to your specifications. He is on the Pro Touring web site with his TA.

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Old 09-04-2019, 10:41 PM
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There are some good pumps that can be mounted external. If you find yourself in need, the Magnafuel Pro tuner series can be mounted just about any way, with their blessing to do so. They have some "preferred" ways, but nothing is off limits. Its lauded as self priming. They recommend feeding the suction side with one size bigger than the discharge, eg. An10 in 8 out, etc. I've had mine about 10 years, no issues. I think I'll send it in this winter, just because. They make 3 versions, supporting 1000, 1500, and 2000 hp. They have a new intank version as well, though the original can be mounted inside as well. No Methanol, but E85 is good to go.

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Old 09-04-2019, 11:45 PM
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Good info guys thank you. I would prefer the SS lines, that was my plan although I was anticipating doing my own bending since I didnt think I'd have a choice. It's down to the frame too so its easier. Size is what I expected to be safe

A frame mount pump would be nice but I still would have concerns for adequate supply in that pancake tank. I had a sump previously but am not planning on reusing that tank.

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Old 09-05-2019, 04:09 AM
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under 1000hp you will be fine with -8 dead-head (no return). You can get hangers to run twin and triple Walbro 460 pumps and good ECUs should be able to stage the pumps. Three Walbro 460s runs my good friend's 1100rwhp 3500lb 8sec turbo car on E85 with no issues.

Anything over -8 is getting to overkill, IMO.

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Old 09-05-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPI View Post
...I believe Doug down in SC has a shop that will even make pre-bent lines to your specifications. He is on the Pro Touring web site with his TA.
You have a URL for that web site Mark?

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Old 09-05-2019, 09:59 AM
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Thanks Marv, I have never been a fan of dead-heading though so I would prefer to stay with a return style system

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1964 421 GP-Sold
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv View Post
under 1000hp you will be fine with -8 dead-head (no return). You can get hangers to run twin and triple Walbro 460 pumps and good ECUs should be able to stage the pumps. Three Walbro 460s runs my good friend's 1100rwhp 3500lb 8sec turbo car on E85 with no issues.

Anything over -8 is getting to overkill, IMO.
SOME VERY GOOD ADVICE HERE.

You can also use the Aeromotive PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) module to stage when the second or third pump comes on line and what the "event time on" is in relation to the engine fuel demand.

Tom V.

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Old 09-05-2019, 10:55 AM
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I've always been under the impression dead heading builds heat and is hard on pumps. Guess I might be wrong then with EFI?

X2 on contact info for the fuel lines....

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1964 421 GP-Sold
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:09 AM
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I don't think it's truly deadheaded, just deadheaded at the rail. GM stuff anyway uses a return closer to the tank. PWM is a different thing altogether, I defer to others on that.

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Old 09-05-2019, 01:38 PM
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Deadhead does eat pumps, and although you won't overheat a pump with a bypass regulator close to the pump, those types of setups typically require a 'managed' pump, such as a PWM controller.

GM EFI ECUs have PWM pump controllers built in, or actually, I believe they are 'hybrid', and use other methods as well to manage pumps.

For a race type setup, you shouldn't use any pump controllers, you want a full bypass regulator, appropriate lines for the HP, and a pump that can support the required flow.

For port injection setups, one thing that is typically overlooked is fuel rails, THOSE need to be the associated size of the feed lines that supports the HP intended to be made. With padding.

Some choose to use a separate fuel system for each rail, and over certain power levels, can jack that requirement to 4 fuel systems. I believe that's once you reach like 2200HP N/A, which is roughly 1500HP forced.

You need roughly 30-35% more fuel feed for forced over N/A as a basic rule.

In some forced systems over 2200HP, they use a fuel management systems that actually controls the application of the second 2 rails, say, over 5000RPM for example. But those are not PWM systems.

1000HP N/A systems generally require -8 internal rail size, and if you use a Y block, -10 feed line, as well as return.

Once you go over like 1400HP, I don't believe there are any internal pumps that can supply enough, though Aeromotive makes some external pumps that can be mounted submerged. You kind of want external anyway in a high HP race type app, since you want to be able to quickly inspect and/or replace pumps.

You can look at the Aeromotive guidelines as a general guide for sizing, gives you an idea, but once you get over 2000HP forced, you REALLY need to do your homework, or get someone that specializes to help.

https://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content...EFIsystems.pdf

When I was building a forced EFI setup which was going to roughly be about 1150HP target, I planned/built the system to support 1600HP. That allows for spikes, room to grow (minimal), and a certain amount of 'padding'. That 'padding', allowed to more 'relaxed' duty cycle, is safer, and makes parts last longer.

But, just to give an idea, the system was comprised of a custom tank, a -12 sump/baffle, -12 return, into an eliminator pump (external), into a -10 to the front mounted Y block, -8 lines & rails, the regulator, and back to the tank.

Just to say, there are many failures due to inadequate fuel systems once you get over 1200HP.

EDIT: Once you get over say 65lbs or so injectors, 'hammering' in the fuel system, which is due to injectors opening and slamming shut, can be a problem, and it may be a good idea to incorp some type of fuel damper.

.

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Old 09-05-2019, 01:49 PM
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Short info from Marren on dampers:

https://www.injector.com/cart/pc/Pul...Dampers-c4.htm

"The easiest way to find out is to monitor your vehicle's fuel pressure at peak power, wide open throttle. A session on the chassis dyno is recommended for this test. Do NOT use a liquid-filled or dampened fuel pressure gauge for this test! At peak power, the fuel pressure gauge should not flutter more than 4-5 PSI. Also, a damper is recommended if one of more of the following conditions exist:
• Batch-fire injection is used
• Engine RPM will exceed 8000 RPM
• 5 or more injectors are used per fuel rail
• To replace a factory-installed fuel damper

For high-power applications, it is recommended that a damper be installed on EACH fuel rail for maximum effectiveness."

Marren is an EFI professional that goes way back, and has served on many race teams. They are an excellent source of information.

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Old 09-06-2019, 11:58 AM
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I would never deadhead a fuel pump...I will fail prematurely and can give you erratic PSI numbers.

I run a -12an from the cell to the pump, -10 from the pump to the Y-block, and then -08an to each fuel rail. For the return, I have a -10an from the regulator to the cell. Also, -08an form the regulator to the back of the fuel rails.

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Old 09-08-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bad69bird View Post
I run a -12an from the cell to the pump, -10 from the pump to the Y-block, and then -08an to each fuel rail. For the return, I have a -10an from the regulator to the cell. Also, -08an form the regulator to the back of the fuel rails.
Actually, that's what I had too, made a mistake when I mentioned a -12 return.

Think we had conversations regarding a number of years ago about plumbing Brian, and we both came to the same conclusions.

I had a custom stainless tank made, had baffles, and an internal sump with one way check valves. Had a indent made on the leading edge with a flat plate, for mounting pump(s) & pre-filter(s). Think I post the diagrams of that here a couple times.

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Old 09-08-2019, 10:28 AM
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I have a -10 an feed and a -12 an return. Also have a filter before the pump and one right before the fuel rail. Never had one a problem...

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Old 09-09-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by charlie66 View Post
Also have a filter before the pump and one right before the fuel rail. Never had one a problem...
I have the same deal...forgot to mention it. lol

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Fastest Pontiac CV-1 car on the planet with only 6 passes on the combo: 4.80@147.65/ 7.49@180.12MPH (3365lbs)
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:50 AM
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A 100 Micron screen filter will catch any of the big rocks in a EFI system and a 10 or 20 micron filter before the injector rails will catch the fine particles.

https://kinsler.com/Shop/product-category/filters/

Tom V.

a 100 micron filter is not going to restrict the fuel flow on the inlet side of the fuel pump.

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Old 09-09-2019, 12:05 PM
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Yeah, I had a 100 pre-pump, and a 10 inline on the frame rail.


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Old 09-09-2019, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
A 100 Micron screen filter will catch any of the big rocks in a EFI system and a 10 or 20 micron filter before the injector rails will catch the fine particles.

https://kinsler.com/Shop/product-category/filters/

Tom V.

a 100 micron filter is not going to restrict the fuel flow on the inlet side of the fuel pump.
Yes sir!

Tom did you get those pictures I emailed to you?

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Fastest Pontiac CV-1 car on the planet with only 6 passes on the combo: 4.80@147.65/ 7.49@180.12MPH (3365lbs)
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
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Yes sir!

Tom did you get those pictures I emailed to you?
No PM to you Brian

Tom V.

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