[necdb3]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Refreshing my comments on old old post. Figured out since my initial post in this thread, 12 years ago, that the Harrison 4 core radiator that was in my '72 T/A was not original, but had been swapped in. The dime sized screw in plugs for gutted automatic tanks were occasionally used by Harrison, have ran across them quite a few times, but since no factory 4 core radiators were avail in '72 Birds, no possible way the prev radiator is original.

Correct, I used to work as a tech when those cars were on the streets. The replacement radiators had the plugs so they could be used in either application.

[Norwood]

Originally Posted by necdb3

Correct, I used to work as a tech when those cars were on the streets. The replacement radiators had the plugs so they could be used in either application.

As well as original equipment.

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by Norwood

As well as original equipment.

I'm not saying it's not possible, I have just never seen one.

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by necdb3

I'm not saying it's not possible, I have just never seen one.

I have many times

[John V.]

I can't speak to the 2nd gen Firebird but I do know about the '64 A body, GTO included.

The manual trans Code 50 and Code 59 radiators in '64 did not appear at the beginning of the Model Year, they are not listed in the Dec. 19, '63 revision of the Tempest Inspector's Guide.

My own Nov. '63 Fremont built '64 GTO is a 4 spd car with the auto trans Radiator installed with plugs. I cannot be certain it is original but I have no reason to suspect it isn't.

More compelling data can be gleaned from the '64 A body Shipping Order records for the Kansas City and Baltimore built Tempests. These records identify the Radiator Code.

Early year manual trans GTOs will show either the Code 57 (2" thick rad) or the Code 58 (2-5/8" thick rad) which included the Oil Cooler and was also used for auto trans GTOs.

Later, the Code 50 and Code 59 manual trans specific 17.5" "tall" rads were released.

Throughout the Model Year some manual trans GTOs continued to show the Code 57 or Code 58 rads on the Shipping Order while other manual trans GTOs will show the Code 50 (2") or Code 59 (2-5/8") rads which were manual trans specific without Oil Coolers.

I have found no evidence to suggest this was a coding error and the rad coding seems to have been random, not tied to any other option choice. In my opinion, the Shipping Order Rad coding indicated the actual rad installed in the build so that many were built throughout the year with "plugged" auto trans rads while others got the specific manual trans rads.

To complete the story, in '64 the GTO rads were the 17.5" "tall" rads. They were used with 326 applications with A/C option.

The 15.5" "short" rads did have specific manual trans for Tempest 6 cyl and 326 applications as identified in the Dec. 19, '63 Inspector's Guide.

I have not seen enough data to know if these manual trans Tempests always got the specific manual trans rad or if they also occasionally used the equivalent "plugged" auto trans rad in production.

It is my opinion that in '64 PMD did NOT expect to produce as many GTOs as they did so that early year they did not choose to release a specific manual trans 17.5" tall rad as there simply wouldn't be enough demand to justify the inventory.

Later as GTO sales took off, they did release the Code 50 and Code 59 but GTO sales still outstripped order quantities so that the Assembly Plants continued to substitute the Code 57 and Code 58 as needed with blanket authorization from engineering.

PMD did NOT service any of the manual trans '64 Tempest rads, only the "dual purpose" auto trans rads.

I have no idea if the same situation existed for the 2nd gen Firebirds but with the declining sales of manual trans cars generally, it certainly wouldn't surprise me. Carrying a large inventory of a rad expected to have little usage would not make sense so that substitution would be a reasonable solution whenever the factory ran short.

And as the '64 rad usage shows, it definitely would not have been unprecedented.

When you see a lot of evidence as OPH and Tellyshavilli have, I tend to think that it is very unlikely that they were all Service Replacements.

[necdb3]

I wonder what the GM parts catalogs would show 4spd vs. auto? If they are the same part numbers? Obviously what they did on an assembly line could vary from what's in a catalog though.

[keith k]

My observation on 4-speed 70 T/As (and my RAIII Formula, which has its original rad...) has been that the standard radiators had the plugs. The heavy duty radiators (cars fitted with performance axle or A/C) had no plugs or provisions for the AT heat exchanger.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

I can't speak to the 2nd gen Firebird but I do know about the '64 A body, GTO included. etc etc

My '65 GTO uses a radiator with plugs: the part number and broadcast code on the radiator match the build sheet found above the gas tank, so it's original.

Originally Posted by necdb3

I wonder what the GM parts catalogs would show 4spd vs. auto? If they are the same part numbers? Obviously what they did on an assembly line could vary from what's in a catalog though.

That is true, but usually the tendency is for the production part to be more specific (a more correct application) and the service part to be more generic: one part covering more applications so that fewer part numbers have to be stocked for service.

K

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

My '65 GTO uses a radiator with plugs: the part number and broadcast code on the radiator match the build sheet found above the gas tank, so it's original.



That is true, but usually the tendency is for the production part to be more specific (a more correct application) and the service part to be more generic: one part covering more applications so that fewer part numbers have to be stocked for service.

K

I agree as that has been my personal experience but, naturally, I haven't experienced everything

[necdb3]

I know this is an old thread but figure I would add some additional info.

Just scored a WC 71 HO 4spd long block, rear 3:42 no A/C from a 71 T/A a friend removed years ago. With the engine came the original radiator. It still has the tag and original tanks on it.

[Tellyshavilli]

Nice find. Tanks CV & IF for 4 Spd 4core (112) A lot of times on 71 up FB the driver side is unstamped.

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli

Nice find. Tanks CV & IF for 4 Spd 4core (112) A lot of times on 71 up FB the driver side is unstamped.

The tag shows IA and CV. That's what is on the tanks also. It's a 3 core.

[T/A Fanatic]

I've been looking for the FR tag for years now. No luck, and I haven't found anyone who repops them. Oh well, the search goes on . . . .