[Pontiakerr]

I have a 69 400 4spd we are currently restoring. After sitting in our garage for years, we have decided to hire a shop to do the restoration because we are way too busy. Trying to decide a few things -

1. The car is numbers matching engine, never restored. We want to do a mild street build, do we build a separate block and leave the numbers matching engine untouched in the event of resale etc?

2. The motor. The motor is a 400 with #62 heads, unrestored. I have a spare set of #62 heads that were redone by a machine shop 10 years ago, but were never installed and put in storage. The heads had a comp cam kit installed, and were not ported. From my previous research, i understood these were great heads. In talking to one local resto shop they disagreed, and recommended I dont use these heads or cam kit at all.
- If I use the heads, what combo is recommended for the motor? I currently have a comp cam to go with it, 502/510 lift hydraulic roller. If I use this set up with a 400, would you take it to a machine shop and lean on their advice for what to order for the short block? I know the brands etc I need but I dont want to order anything that can not be used.

3. What would be a resonable price for the motor work, swap machine work etc on something like this? the local shop quoted us at 10-12k just to do the motor and swap it, along with everything that goes with it (oil pump motor mounts etc...) My husband thinks this is a little unreasonable, I am not sure.

Thanks so much for reading!

[b-man]

Without knowing your goals for the engine build it’s hard to say exactly.

However building an engine where you’re touching all the bases and adding to that the now very expensive hydraulic roller cam and lifters it’s not hard to have 10k in a moderate performance build.

Rebuilding the heads correctly for a performance engine requires new valves, guides, springs, retainers and keepers, stronger ARP rocker studs, hardened exhaust seats and resurfacing at least the combustion chamber side and likely the exhaust flange side. You’re looking at around 2k just to do it right. I doubt your spare pair of #62 heads were done that thoroughly maybe I’m wrong.

New forged pistons and rods are a must. Forget about rebuilding and reusing the factory cast rods, it makes no economic sense as aftermarket forged aren’t much more costly than rebuilding inferior cast factory rods. You may need to consider ordering a set of pistons with a small dish to lower the compression a bit to make the engine more compatible with the substandard fuels of today, a set of quality forged pistons can easily set you back $750 to $900 with rings and pins.

Grinding the crank and line boring the block along with boring the block for the new pistons using a torque plate are other expensive operations that start to add up.

Your local shop should be able to provide a detailed list of parts and machining operations which will be included in the build.

Your husband needs to understand that for a shop to pull and reinstall the engine and supply the pieces needed for the installation isn’t inexpensive. 12k for everything is about right.

Unless your local shop is well-versed in Pontiacs I’d advise to have the engine built by a Pontiac specialist, don’t get sucked into using your local shop purely out of convenience.

Define your goals and provide the camshaft specifications, knowing the lift only doesn’t tell us much. Also what exhaust system you’re planning on using. Are you trying to retain a factory look ? The original carburetor and intake manifold are good for 500 horsepower without a problem.

[Pontiakerr]

Originally Posted by b-man

Without knowing your goals for the engine build it’s hard to say exactly.

However building an engine where you’re touching all the bases and adding to that the now very expensive hydraulic roller cam and lifters it’s not hard to have 10k in a moderate performance build.

Rebuilding the heads correctly for a performance engine requires new valves, guides, springs, retainers and keepers, stronger ARP rocker studs, hardened exhaust seats and resurfacing at least the combustion chamber side and likely the exhaust flange side. You’re looking at around 2k just to do it right. I doubt your spare pair of #62 heads were done that thoroughly maybe I’m wrong.

New forged pistons and rods are a must. Forget about rebuilding and reusing the factory cast rods, it makes no economic sense as aftermarket forged aren’t much more costly than rebuilding inferior cast factory rods. You may need to consider ordering a set of pistons with a small dish to lower the compression a bit to make the engine more compatible with the substandard fuels of today, a set of quality forged pistons can easily set you back $750 to $900 with rings and pins.

Grinding the crank and line boring the block along with boring the block for the new pistons using a torque plate are other expensive operations that start to add up.

Your local shop should be able to provide a detailed list of parts and machining operations which will be included in the build.

Your husband needs to understand that for a shop to pull and reinstall the engine and supply the pieces needed for the installation isn’t inexpensive. 12k for everything is about right.

Unless your local shop is well-versed in Pontiacs I’d advise to have the engine built by a Pontiac specialist, don’t get sucked into using your local shop purely out of convenience.

Thanks for the response. To my knowledge the heads were gone through to this extent, but I dont have receipts any longer. They were done by a pontiac machinist who has since retired, but I put about 3k in machine work alone, along with comp valves springs etc. I do believe they were done right, but they have been sitting in storage (sealed in plastic) for 10 years.

The resto shop claimed to be pontiac specialists, but tried to convince me that 6x heads were better than 62, and said a few other things that didnt make sense to me (maybe I am wrong). I have searched my area for a pontiac specialist and have not found one yet (SW Florida) I am willing to travel.

Goals - streetable with decent HP but not crazy, dont want to run race gas. I havent decided on exhaust yet. Currently running a Holley 750 carb and edelbrock intake but that can be changed if advised. Doesnt need a factory look specifically, I will likely do mostly original with updated rims and tires.

Would you take it to a machine shop, get the motor done and THEN take it to the resto shop, or trust them to handle all of it?

[b-man]

Keeping with the original look means keeping the #62 heads. Without porting the 6X heads are no better than the #62 heads and quite frankly the 6X heads are ugly looking in comparison. If it were my car keeping the correct heads and everything else under the hood as much as possible for that particular car would take precedence. Both heads are very close to equal ported or not.

If your shop has a good reputation I guess it’s worth pursuing but only you can decide. Labor rates and parts prices continue to rise so again 12k for everything isn’t unreasonable in the least.

[JLMounce]

I echo what b-man is saying here. 12K for an engine build that includes an engine R&R is actually probably a decent price. Around 8-9k for parts and labor on the engine and another 2-3K for the R&R. Having done an R&R on my engine this past summer, I wouldn't touch that job for less than 2K and I'm an amateur.

Saving the numbers matching engine and heads to be built 100% back to stock probably would only make financial sense if the car was being restored to be sold and then only if it's a car of significant provenance. While a 400 4spd 69 Firebird is very cool and has some collectability, I don't think potentially building two engines makes sense. If the desire to remain numbers matching is there, simply build the engine you do have, with the numbers matching heads. Sell the other 62's to recoup some cost.

If you run the numbers matching mill with some mild internal upgrades that don't go crazy, you're not going to hurt the value of the car any. If the factory crank is in good condition, I'd have it reconditioned. I'd probably recommend the Eagle "SIR" I beam rods. They are an entry level forged rod with a great price point. For a mild 400, they'd be fine. Then add a forged piston in the pin size, overbore size and dish size that you need. I'd like to target around 9.3:1 with the iron heads.

The 62's are fine. Now they aren't a round port or anything exotic, but they're still a decent OEM head. If there is budget for it, some minor porting can help, but certainly isn't necessary to build a well running and fun engine.

I run a hydraulic roller in my 455 and while yeah it makes great power and driveability, they come with some drawbacks. Noise being a huge factor, cost being next. In 2015 when I did my top end and cam upgrade, I had an extra $1000.00 just in the cam and lifters than I would have with a hydraulic flat tappet cam. I have no clue what that surcharge would be in the current high inflation environment. On something that is supposed to be intentionally more mild, I don't know that the juice is worth the squeeze. I'd probably recommend something closer to a modernized 067 cam.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Pontiakerr

Thanks for the response. To my knowledge the heads were gone through to this extent, but I dont have receipts any longer. They were done by a pontiac machinist who has since retired, but I put about 3k in machine work alone, along with comp valves springs etc. I do believe they were done right, but they have been sitting in storage (sealed in plastic) for 10 years.

The resto shop claimed to be pontiac specialists, but tried to convince me that 6x heads were better than 62, and said a few other things that didnt make sense to me (maybe I am wrong). I have searched my area for a pontiac specialist and have not found one yet (SW Florida) I am willing to travel.

Goals - streetable with decent HP but not crazy, dont want to run race gas. I havent decided on exhaust yet. Currently running a Holley 750 carb and edelbrock intake but that can be changed if advised. Doesnt need a factory look specifically, I will likely do mostly original with updated rims and tires.

Would you take it to a machine shop, get the motor done and THEN take it to the resto shop, or trust them to handle all of it?

If you already have a set of heads you feel comfortable with the work done, have you thought about perhaps buying something like a Len Williams short block? That might be the most economical way to get this done and get what you want out of it.

[kingbuzzo]

I second that - if I had the OG block and had to do it all over again I would go with Len or Butler if budget allowed.

I'd put the original block in the corner and have as much fun with the car as possible.

Unfortunately I gambled on a used motor and obviously don't take my own advice...lol

Good luck with any direction!