[65 Wagon]

I know there was a post a few years ago about the oldest GTO. That would cover the start but when was the model year change over from '64 to '65? I have a '64 Hardtop built the 5th week of July '64 so I'm thinking it's close to the end.

[Keith Seymore]

Gunnell's Catalog of all things Pontiac shows the 1964 model year production ceased on 8/2/1964.

I do not know if that is specific to the Pontiac Michigan plant, or the last plant of any that were producing (Fremont, Kansas City, or Baltimore).

K

[John V.]

Keith, I know Fremont started '64 production same day as the Pontiac Plant. Can't swear they stopped the same day but I'd bet they did. Okay, maybe not bet, but believe they most likely did.

I have never come across any '64 Pontiac with a Time Built code on the Data Plate from August (on either end of the Model Year).

So 07E would undoubtedly be a late build.

I have several PHS records covering all 4 Plants with late July dates, the latest I could find in a quick search was 7/28 for a Baltimore build.

I've estimated the VIN endpoint for each Plant from these documents.

65 Wagon, your VIN would likely be the highest one I've noted and would be interesting to compare with my estimate for whatever Plant produced it, depending on how shy you are about posting the VIN.

Regardless, you are correct that you have a pretty late build. Not to burst any bubbles, but they produced more than 600 GTOs every week in '64 on average and probably more in the 2nd half of the year as it gained in popularity. So even if it was built on the last day of '64 production, it was likely one of dozens produced that day.

BTW, looks like I got reinstated. Hooray for me! Nobody notified me, just tried to post for the first time in several weeks and it worked much to my surprise.

Thanks to whoever got this done.

[Keith Seymore]

Thank you, John, and welcome back!

K

[4GTOSplus]

I have a Fremont 64 Lemans Post that I am working on. Date produced 7/29/1964 N,(night?) which was a Wednesday. 824F038794 August 2nd would have been a Sunday. Did they work a 7 day week? Funny the days and dates coincide with this year.


Interesting thread

This 64 has power windows, AC and tilt wheel also Power antenna. All on PHS. Looks like they were using up parts on shelf because the antenna wire was fed through the cowl then cut in both sides.

[John V.]

Thanks Keith. Good to be back!

Yes, N indicates Night Shift, but it is unknown (to me) what actually happened on the "Date Produced" shown on the Fremont document. May have rolled off the Final Line during that shift but not certain. My own '64 GTO shows 11/20/63, the Wed before JFK was killed in Dallas on 11/22.

I'd have to check, but that may be the highest VIN I've seen from the Fremont Plant. They started at F1001, so yours indicates almost 38,000 VINs assigned.

Does your Data Plate also show 7E?

Good question on the date. They didn't generally work Sundays. So not sure if any cars were assembled on Aug 2nd.

They also only generally worked 2 shifts so assuming there was a 2nd shift on Sat 8/1, it would have ended before midnight. Keith can talk about this more intelligently, but I believe 3rd shift was normally reserved for maintenance and clean up with a skeleton crew.

Perhaps 8/2 was considered the last day of the '64 Model Year only because 8/3 began the Plant Shutdown for changeover to the next Model Year while the Line Workers began their vacation.

Would be interesting to comb the PHS records to see what Date Produced is indicated on the last of the '64 VINs.

Interesting option list, sounds pretty loaded. My GTO also got the Tilt Wheel, probably the "rarest" option it got.

[65 Wagon]

Sorry, I was mistaken on the date. It's actually 07D (not E) so it would have been from the 4th week, not 5th. That's what I get for relying on my memory. The SN is 34645

[4GTOSplus]

Yes is 7E. CA Car was driven across country in the early 70's. Blew the motor about 75 miles west of Boston MA. The towing company owner purchased the car and stuck it in a garage. A 1964 Pontiac Lemans with ZERO rust. Straight and unmolested. All original panels. Bought the car a few years ago. Its transformation to a Fremont Tri Power GTO is almost done. Was maroon with a white interior. Now black on red, 389 4spd Tri Power.

Could this be the last A body http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...436635217built at Fremont?

[John V.]

65 Wagon, I already have a record of a Balt GTO that was a little later than yours.

VIN sequence is almost 1000 higher than yours and the Lemans 2 Dr. Hardtop Body No. is about 150 units after yours (Body Nos. were tabulated separately for each Model Series/Body Style). Same 07D Time Built code.

Would be interesting to compare Broadcast Dates with yours, the later one shows 7/28 as the Broadcast Date on the PHS record.

I believe Balt was producing at least 120 Pontiac A Bodies per day at that time so I'm thinking your Broadcast Date would be 7-8 working days prior to 7/28 so maybe 7/20?

4GTOSplus, unlikely yours was last at Fremont. Almost a certainty that they continued churning them out for another 2-3 days.

IIRC, around that time frame, Fremont was churning out about 150 Pontiac A bodies per day.

Yours would be close to the end, but probably not the last.

What is your 4 digit Load No. seen on the Data Plate and also in the last box on the 2nd line of your PHS?

I'm wondering if it had rolled past 9999 again (it rolled past 9999 3 times previously in '64 at Fremont). Might not mean much to you but that code is another clue to how late it was produced. EDIT, oops, I forgot you posted the Data Plate, Load No. 9552. A bit lower than I was guessing.

BTW, NICE looking coupe!

[4GTOSplus]

Thanks John. Have you heard of any Fremont Pontiacs into 39000?

[DANTIP]

Originally Posted by 4GTOSplus

Thanks John. Have you heard of any Fremont Pontiacs into 39000?

I know of a '64 GTO ending in 39099. Built 7-31N (Friday night). I believe Fremont began building '65 cars on Monday morning (8-3).

[DANTIP]

Originally Posted by John V.

Thanks Keith. Good to be back!

Yes, N indicates Night Shift, but it is unknown (to me) what actually happened on the "Date Produced" shown on the Fremont document. May have rolled off the Final Line during that shift but not certain. My own '64 GTO shows 11/20/63, the Wed before JFK was killed in Dallas on 11/22.

I'd have to check, but that may be the highest VIN I've seen from the Fremont Plant. They started at F1001, so yours indicates almost 38,000 VINs assigned.

Does your Data Plate also show 7E?

Good question on the date. They didn't generally work Sundays. So not sure if any cars were assembled on Aug 2nd.

They also only generally worked 2 shifts so assuming there was a 2nd shift on Sat 8/1, it would have ended before midnight. Keith can talk about this more intelligently, but I believe 3rd shift was normally reserved for maintenance and clean up with a skeleton crew.

Perhaps 8/2 was considered the last day of the '64 Model Year only because 8/3 began the Plant Shutdown for changeover to the next Model Year while the Line Workers began their vacation.

Would be interesting to comb the PHS records to see what Date Produced is indicated on the last of the '64 VINs.

Interesting option list, sounds pretty loaded. My GTO also got the Tilt Wheel, probably the "rarest" option it got.

This is a photo of the trim tag on the last '64 GTO Produced in Fremont and perhaps last from every plant?? Crazy that they put that on the Trim Tag!

[60sstuff]

Dan,

Hope the ‘64 experts will have answers on this very cool unique BF Data Plate.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by DANTIP

I know of a '64 GTO ending in 39099. Built 7-31N (Friday night). I believe Fremont began building '65 cars on Monday morning (8-3).

Gunnell's shows start of 1965 production on 8/24/64. Again - no idea which plant that is referring to, but I would guess Pontiac Michigan with the satellite plants to follow.

I would expect each plant to be down for changeover for at least a couple weeks, at a minimum to purge all old '64 stock, bring in and place lineside the new for '65 model year material, modify any conveyors, hooks, etc to match the new material, and any minor process tweaks or maintenance they had in mind.

Just speculation on my part, but I base that on 40 years with GM Truck Engineering, in product design, vehicle assembly and new product launch.

K

[DANTIP]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Gunnell's shows start of 1965 production on 8/24/64. Again - no idea which plant that is referring to, but I would guess Pontiac Michigan with the satellite plants to follow.

I would expect each plant to be down for changeover for at least a couple weeks, at a minimum to purge all old '64 stock, bring in and place lineside the new for '65 model year material, modify any conveyors, hooks, etc to match the new material, and any minor process tweaks or maintenance they had in mind.

Just speculation on my part, but I base that on 40 years with GM Truck Engineering, in product design, vehicle assembly and new product launch.

K

There was also a strike involved near that time as well.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by DANTIP

There was also a strike involved near that time as well.

Later than that.

My GTO was built 9/18/64 in Pontiac, and was out before the strike started.

Its completion was rushed to get it off GM property before the strike hit (and it shows, in terms of build quality).

K

[60sstuff]

The nation wide General Motors strike was from Sept. 25, 1964 and ended a month later on Oct. 25, 1964.

[Keith Seymore]

That timing checks out.

Our car was invoiced 9/21/64. Dad immediately pulled the engine apart and then spent the first week of the strike running around to get parts to put it back together.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

"The Gasket Story"

As I mentioned, our '65 GTO was built early in September of 1964. There were rumblings of a strike that year, so the build of our car, a factory "demonstrator" - if you will - was hastened so that it could be out in public before the strike hit and not be trapped on GM property. As a result, Dad and I drove down on a Friday and picked the car up from the Engineering Building, complete with three 7.75 whitewalls installed, one 7.75 redline and a 7.35 whitewall for a spare. A three speed was installed in the car and the intended four speed was loose in the trunk. As expected, later that week the UAW went out on strike.

Naturally, we had the GTO home for about a day before Dad started tearing into it, prepping it for race usage. Heads off to be cut .030", thinner head gaskets, shimming valve springs, recurving the distributor, etc. As he started putting the car back together he went to set the intake back on and (...as we now know...) the pattern had changed from '64 to '65. He didn't have any of the "new style" intake gaskets, so he called Superior Pontiac/Cadillac in Flint and asked them if they did. They said "sure, come on down" so he went in and (...guess what...) they didn't. They had the '64 style. He informed them of the change and started calling around to find gaskets. He called Royal; same result - "yeah, we got 'em" (...they didn't...). Jesse had him call the manufacturer and he nearly had a deal finalized, saying they could send him a couple until they realized he was a private individual rather than in some "official" capacity. Dad was getting ready to get some gasket material and make his own when Jesse had a bright idea: they could get some out of the Pontiac motor plant. He had heard Jim Wangers was heading over there to do some kind of marketing presentation and, since the plant was on strike, Dad should be able to get in there and get what he needed. The deal was struck and the time set. Dad was to wear his best suit and was going to get into the plant with a "Press" pass.

Dad was supposed to meet Jim at his office one morning shortly thereafter. After sitting in the waiting room for quite awhile Jim emerged from his office; they hopped into Jim's big yellow 2+2 "School Bus" and after a quick stop for an early lunch they made it over to the entrance at the Pontiac facility. The place was awash with activity, as there are all these UAW employees out picketing in front of the plant. As they drive through the gate, Jim saw someone he knew so he stopped the car to shoot the bull with this guy. That was fine until Dad saw someone HE knew! Pretty incriminating for him to be going into a plant, while it was on strike, him in a suit, and a UAW diemaker at that! He said "Jim, get me outta here!" pulled his suitcoat up over his head and they zipped through the gate without any further incident.

Once inside, Jim took his portfolio and papers and went up to the front offices and Dad headed out to the floor. Imagine an empty plant during shutdown: lights are off, everything is quiet, just a few individuals in sitting around playing cards or table tennis in the break areas. Finally, a guy showed up on a three wheeled scooter and says "Whattya need, Slim?". Dad said "I'm the guy that needs the gaskets". So he hopped on the scooter and they wind their way back into the bowels of the plant. They pull up to a work area and, sure enough, here are baskets and baskets (...and baskets...) of gaskets. The guy hands Dad a stack about two feet high and says "How many do you need?". Dad grabbed enough to reassemble his motor plus a few extras and they got out of there. Needless to say, for a few weeks after that the local guys were calling us to see if we had intake gaskets so they could put their cars back together.

As far as our car, we had it back together shortly thereafter. By the time of the "official" introduction - "Pontiac Day" at Detroit Dragway on Sunday, September 27 - we were already tuned up and hit the ground running, making some low 12.90 passes in B/S trim.