[1965gp]

You could argue that with the bigger back seat the Challenger can be justified for families with children, the Mustang and Camaro not so much.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

and handles well s pretty darned good.

Compared to what?

Not compared to a Camaro, Mustang, Corvette.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

You could argue that with the bigger back seat the Challenger can be justified for families with children, the Mustang and Camaro not so much.

Is a major selling point of a Muscle Car fitting the whole darn family in it? As long as the front two seats are comfortable, that's all that really matters to most serious Muscle Car enthusiasts.

If you are telling your wife you're looking at a Challenger because it has a roomy back seat for the kids, you've already turned in your "Muscle Car Man Card" in my opinion. Many wives will tell you that you should buy her a minivan instead (not my wife - she hates minivans - and she would take a Camaro over a Challenger and day of the week).

How many people want a 450 - 700+ horsepower 2 door car for a family cruiser anyway?

(Some of the above is typed somewhat "tongue in cheek")

[71GP76TA]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Compared to what?

Not compared to a Camaro, Mustang, Corvette.

The wide body does

[71GP76TA]

My '21 Scat Pack for reference. It gets driven..

[1965gp]

Is this when I should say my wife’s daily driver is a Hellcat? She loved it more than I do. The kids do too!

My point was that if you were trying to convince your wife to let you get a muscle car snd you have kids, one with a usable back seat sure makes it an easier sell.

As far as handling goes I think the Mustang drives fantastic- my daughter has a 2016 and it’s a great driving car (even with the V6). Camaro handled good, but again there was no place to put your phone or anything with two people in the car. Also my 12 yr old could barely fit in the back seat.,

I have not driven a wide body yet, but I can tell you our Charger (non wide body) in SRT mode is an amazing car- it surprises how much the engineers have gotten out of that chassis.

[keith k]

You can't really look at last year as "normal" relative to sales of these cars. I know firsthand that the Mustang plant was the first one Ford shut down to divert chips to other vehicles. That's part of the reason dealers have had such high markups on Mustangs recently ... because they are having a hard time getting new ones to sell (see numbers at below link).
https://www.autoblog.com/article/car...ealer-markups/

I'm sure GM was doing the same with the Camaro, prioritizing Corvettes, etc.

And I'd guess Chrysler was able to source chips to keep Challengers in production.

[Jay S]

Yep…and when the smok’n hot Mrs’s say’s the Hellcat isn’t big enough for the family right now there is alway’s the Durango Hellcat!

My wife’s driver is an older Dodge Magnum R/T with a tuner, good sized cam, and an aftermarket induction and exhaust. She’d be happy replacing it with a Challenger R/T or SRT, hauls kids around all the time. Roomy and quick, part of what is cool with some of the newer Dodge stuff. When she is late too work hearing the car go screaming up the drive is quite entertaining. Just missing that supercharger wine

[kingbuzzo]

What could gm do to win new buyers? I like the t/a conversions even if they aren't roomy.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by keith k

You can't really look at last year as "normal" relative to sales of these cars. I know firsthand that the Mustang plant was the first one Ford shut down to divert chips to other vehicles. That's part of the reason dealers have had such high markups on Mustangs recently ... because they are having a hard time getting new ones to sell (see numbers at below link).
https://www.autoblog.com/article/car...ealer-markups/

I'm sure GM was doing the same with the Camaro, prioritizing Corvettes, etc.

And I'd guess Chrysler was able to source chips to keep Challengers in production.

I heard the other day Ford has a pretty bad chip shortage yet. I talked to trucker familiar with the trucking outfit hauling vehicles out of Ford Plant in KC about a week ago. From what I recall the truck drivers are given a chip they take with them, and that chip had to be switched to every vehicle to load and unload the truck for transport to the dealers. Then if the dealer needed to move the car or go for a test drive they had a chip they could do those things, but still had to transfer the chip between vehicles. It didn’t sound like they were allowed to sell the vehicle without the chip. Quite a mess. I don’t know if it was on a particular model, or just a problem at that plant.

No doubt, it has effected car sales.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

Is this when I should say my wife’s daily driver is a Hellcat?.

As stated in my post, my wife wouldn't want a Challenger. Doesn't like the looks or the physical size. She owns a Camaro and has never worried about adults or children accessing the back seat.

As far as handling - check out any Mustang, Camaro and Challenger comparison and the Challenger is in a distant last place of the 3 when it comes to handling - primarily because of it's size and weight.

Our preferred daily driver was a Cadillac ATS, replaced last year with a new CT4, both of which are on the same platform as the Camaro.

Back in 2016 we rented an ATS while on vacation and were both so impressed with the fun to drive quotient on the windy twisty back roads of NC that we bought one of our own within 30 days of our return from that trip to NC.

You like your Challenger. I'm happy for you. We prefer a better handling vehicle. YRMV..

[1965gp]

I’d be interested in hearing what you like about the ATS- even if it’s in another thread. I don’t typically look at Cadillac as an option. I really don’t know anything about them.

What can GM do to gain new customers? The only point of view I have is mine so…

I don’t look at anything in their line up and say ‘I have to have that!’. All of their cars seem to be appliances.

Other makes all have something that catches your eye- for me GM just really doesn’t have anything for me. I’m not a vette guy (although the new one is very impressive) and the Camaro just isn’t comfortable for me. I actually don’t mind the looks of the current Camaro as much as others do, I just like other cars more.

The advertisements probably have a lot to do with it. Have you ever seen a Camaro doing a burn out or pulling the tires in a TV spot?

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by The Champ

As stated in my post, my wife wouldn't want a Challenger. Doesn't like the looks or the physical size. She owns a Camaro and has never worried about adults or children accessing the back seat.

As far as handling - check out any Mustang, Camaro and Challenger comparison and the Challenger is in a distant last place of the 3 when it comes to handling - primarily because of it's size and weight.

Our preferred daily driver was a Cadillac ATS, replaced last year with a new CT4, both of which are on the same platform as the Camaro.

Back in 2016 we rented an ATS while on vacation and were both so impressed with the fun to drive quotient on the windy twisty back roads of NC that we bought one of our own within 30 days of our return from that trip to NC.

You like your Challenger. I'm happy for you. We prefer a better handling vehicle. YRMV..

That's the exact train of thought that has the Camaro struggling to stay afloat. Most Americans buying modern muscle cars want the style and stoplight to stoplight brute power. GM is fascinated with building the Camaro as some sort of road racer, but that's not marketable to 99% of buyers. Most dont have access to track day rentals or autocross events, but everybody has access to straight line action.

The Challenger handles well, in fact I'd argue it handles exceptionally well given it's weight and dated chassis.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

I’d be interested in hearing what you like about the ATS- even if it’s in another thread. I don’t typically look at Cadillac as an option. I really don’t know anything about them.

When we arrived in Charlotte and went to the National car rental Emerald Aisle (where you just pick out any rental car that suits your fancy that day - my wife travels for business frequently and that it a great perk) back in 2016, the looks attracted us to the Cadillac ATS.

I knew it had the near 300 HP 2.OL turbo and was built on the Camaro platform and understood it should handle quite well, so decided to try it out.

Our normal daily driver was a Pontiac Torrent at the time - a very good vehicle - but obviously not something known for excellent handling on the back roads.

Leaving the airport and getting on the interstate, the crisp acceleration was welcome. Once we got out of Charlotte and onto the rural two lane roads the combination of the engine, the relatively light weight (about 1,000 pounds lighter than the Challenger) and the suspension just made the car fun to drive. Add to that that the car was extremely comfortable, had heads up display (a feature we both love - had it in our 94 Bonneville SSEI and 98 Grand Prix GT) and a decent sized trunk made it an easy decision to buy one.

I ended up owning the car for 5 years and put 80,000 miles on it. Average fuel economy was in the 27 - 28 range in combined driving. Straight highway would be 31 - 32 MPG.

So after 5 years and 80,000 miles, decided it was time to upgrade. With our mutual enjoyment of the ATS, we went with the current version of the same car - the CT4.

Your comment about all GM vehicles being "appliances" made me laugh. That is exactly what I say about Toyota products.

And for the most part, that's how I feel about most Mopar products too.

I consider the Challenger to be more like your (I assume you have a 65) Grand Prix. Even back in the day - a 1970 Challenger (3800 pounds) weighed in more than a GP (3784) and both were much heavier than a Camaro (3310).

I don't care about advertising hype like Mopar does. Doing burnouts may excite some people, but I'm more interested in the ability to handle corners with confidence.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

That's the exact train of thought that has the Camaro struggling to stay afloat. Most Americans buying modern muscle cars want the style and stoplight to stoplight brute power. GM is fascinated with building the Camaro as some sort of road racer, but that's not marketable to 99% of buyers. Most dont have access to track day rentals or autocross events, but everybody has access to straight line action.

The Challenger handles well, in fact I'd argue it handles exceptionally well given it's weight and dated chassis.

I dispute your contention of needing to have access to track day rental or autocross events vs straight line action. I can get to an autocross event or track day just as easily as a drag strip.

If you're talking about on the street, I still disagree. Stoplight to stoplight doesn't happen in normal city traffic. Driving on 2 lane roads and actually enjoying taking corners 10 - 20 MPH faster than most is easily accomplished. I do it frequently.

Saying that the Challenger handles "exceptionally well" nearly made me laugh until you qualified it with "given it's weight and dated chassis".

My '49 Cadillac Limo handles exceptionally well too, given it's weight and dated chassis - but I don't try and compare it to a Camaro.

[bird72]

On design aesthetics, I like the Mustang. Was eyeballing a new Mach 1 at dealer a week ago while waiting. I will admit if I bought one, I would probably get a twin turbo 2.7 version, compromise on gas mileage and performance in mind. I love that drivetrain in my F150.

[mgarblik]

36 comments and it helps explain the sales numbers IMO. Reading all of them, pretty evenly split between the brands. I didn't run the exact numbers, but seems slightly more members like the Mopar offerings and Ford and GM are pretty evenly split. Much like the magazine road tests, the "drag racers", seem to lean toward the brute HP of the Mopars, while the "Cars and Coffee crowd", appreciate the more precise handling and the intricate precision of the Ford 4-cam engine. I guess that's why all three brands survive for now. Interesting that Cadillac cars and the 4-door Charger is thrown into the discussion with the 2-door coupes. Shows how the hobby has aged, how good a job the manufacturers have done with the sedans. 40 years ago, a "car person" wouldn't be caught dead in any 4-door. These cars are going the way of the first "Muscle Car" era in the near future. We can probably all agree on this.

[mzbk2l]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

I’d be interested in hearing what you like about the ATS- even if it’s in another thread. I don’t typically look at Cadillac as an option. I really don’t know anything about them.

We have a Cadillac XT5 (mid-sized crossover) but often get sedans as loaners when we take it in for an oil change. I've had ATS (CT4), CTS (CT5) and CT6s. While I ended up buying a 550hp CT6-V because I loved the full size and high tech, the CT4 Sport was my VERY close second choice. I'll echo everything The Champ said about handling. We have some twisty canyon roads out here in AZ and that car would FLY through the switchbacks. I liked the seats better than my CT6, as well. For me, though, I wanted the AWD, AWS, night vision, adaptive cruise, and Bose Panaray sound system that was only available in the CT6 (not to mention the 550/640 power of the Blackwing engine).

Interestingly enough, even though I'm down 100-150hp to some of the other cars mentioned in this thread, I can out accelerate many of them because they're busy spinning while I'm busy accelerating with AWD.

Originally Posted by The Champ

When we arrived in Charlotte and went to the National car rental Emerald Aisle (where you just pick out any rental car that suits your fancy that day - my wife travels for business frequently and that it a great perk) back in 2016, the looks attracted us to the Cadillac ATS.

I knew it had the near 300 HP 2.OL turbo and was built on the Camaro platform and understood it should handle quite well, so decided to try it out.

That's how we ended up with our XT5. Cadillac should probably GIVE loaded cars to the rental agencies, based on how many sales that seems to generate.

Originally Posted by The Champ

Our normal daily driver was a Pontiac Torrent at the time - a very good vehicle - but obviously not something known for excellent handling on the back roads.

Leaving the airport and getting on the interstate, the crisp acceleration was welcome. Once we got out of Charlotte and onto the rural two lane roads the combination of the engine, the relatively light weight (about 1,000 pounds lighter than the Challenger) and the suspension just made the car fun to drive. Add to that that the car was extremely comfortable, had heads up display (a feature we both love - had it in our 94 Bonneville SSEI and 98 Grand Prix GT) and a decent sized trunk made it an easy decision to buy one.

I also had four Pontiacs when we started buying Cadillacs: 2 SSEi Bonnevilles and a '98 GTP, along with my '79 T/A. Funny how many Pontiac owners seem to gravitate toward sporty Caddies since the demise of the Indian head.

[64catman]

I'm pretty happy with my Non-Challenger...

[tigergto]

The age old debate, which make or better is better. No right or wrong answer. Whatever serves your individual needs and what you’ve had good luck with. Myself, I swore off ever buying another Cadillac for a daily driver, although I still have mine. I see some guys on here love them and I respect that. My fun cars are my Corvette and Z4. My next daily driver will probably be A Volvo. My wife has the XC 60 and it’s been a great vehicle.