[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

It is best to measure the amount of pre-load as different version of these lifters are sold depending on the manufacture and date of manufacture as they have made changes to the travel of the plungers over the years.

I refuse to use anything but Johnson or Crane for HR's,

Yep,

And I wouldn't mind trying a set of the Crane's sometime. I always liked Crane products back before they disappeared for a while.

[HWYSTR455]

One of the issues some have with the Morels is that the incorrect preload is used. Just to clarify, it's not the same for iron block/iron heads as it is with iron block/aluminum heads.

http://www.johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Ad...licLifters.pdf

Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

Since they have a short travel, if you go past a full turn on a 7/16 stud, guess what?

So that may be part of the 'bad rap' they get.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yep,

And I wouldn't mind trying a set of the Crane's sometime. I always liked Crane products back before they disappeared for a while.

If it weren't for the steep price, it would be 'worth' trying them. But if you run into similar issues as some find with other brands, than it would be wasteful. It's pretty hard to justify 2x the 'usual' cost, unless of course they were guaranteed to work flawlessly.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If it weren't for the steep price, it would be 'worth' trying them. But if you run into similar issues as some find with other brands, than it would be wasteful. It's pretty hard to justify 2x the 'usual' cost, unless of course they were guaranteed to work flawlessly.

.

There are no guarantees with this stuff, and understandably so as they can't control what or how the end user uses this stuff once it's sold, and so much of whether it works well or not weighs heavily on that.

I will say though, I've never had any issues with Crane products so that gives me at least a small comfort level. If I could compare oil band heights that would help. I don't mind the cost factor, I'll gladly pay more for something if it works better. I learned that lesson a long time ago.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying, if I knew they were better and worked, I too would gladly pay twice as much. But if I'm going to take a 'chance', I might as well try the Johnsons.

In my case, I KNOW it wasn't a 'user install issue', so there's really no excuse for my failure.

.

[Formulajones]

Oh I would for sure recommend the Johnsons. I know them to be trouble free and work as intended.

My issue with them was that the last 2 Pontiac rollers I did recently, the Johnsons weren't available and there was no ETA either. They run them in batches and when they run out, we have to wait until another batch is run.

Paul was on top of that deal for me hoping they would run another batch before the time came to button these engines up, but he had already been waiting several months at that point with no ETA. So I ended up going with the Shaver version of Comps I bought from Paul K, and the other set was a brand that Paul C recommended for the other build I was doing (forget the brand now but they aren't Comps as Paul C does not like them) So far both of those engines are quiet and work nicely.

So if Paul says the Johnsons are available now, I'm tempted to snatch a set now to keep for a future build. Or I may just try the Cranes.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

One of the issues some have with the Morels is that the incorrect preload is used. Just to clarify, it's not the same for iron block/iron heads as it is with iron block/aluminum heads.

http://www.johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Ad...licLifters.pdf

Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

Since they have a short travel, if you go past a full turn on a 7/16 stud, guess what?

So that may be part of the 'bad rap' they get.

.

Different expansion rates. This is why aircraft reciprocating engines use AL pushrods with steel ends. The aluminum jugs are very tall and expand a ton.

[JSchmitz]

My old engine builder (Retired) always used Johnson flat cam lifters. I had a freshly rebuilt 455 with a RAIV cam and Johnson lifters. I had a couple of ticking lifters. I took them all apart one at a time and washed them out with solvent. Quiet as can be from then on. It only takes a piece of fly sh!t in there to make them tick I think. Unfortunately, you can't get the plunger out of the rollers that I know of.

[darbikrash]

How much is a set of Hylift Johnson hydraulic roller lifters for a Pontiac?

[tom s]

Are the Johnsons Butler sells diff from Hilift Johnsons?Seems like Johnsons are the ones most reccomended between the two?Johnson makes a few diff Pontiac hyd roller lifters like Morel does?Tom

[tom s]

https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/...erLifters.aspx

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

My old engine builder (Retired) always used Johnson flat cam lifters. I had a freshly rebuilt 455 with a RAIV cam and Johnson lifters. I had a couple of ticking lifters. I took them all apart one at a time and washed them out with solvent. Quiet as can be from then on. It only takes a piece of fly sh!t in there to make them tick I think. Unfortunately, you can't get the plunger out of the rollers that I know of.

When I was still using HFT lifters, I always took them apart and cleaned them. But even then it became a crap-shoot.

Yes, the ones Butler sells are the same Johnson lifters. They make a standard and a short travel, most go for the short travel. Think they used to make a 'race' one too, but not sure if they still do. Can't open Butler's site at the moment to check.

Not sure, but think the HyLift are a different manufacturer, think there was some confusion on that topic, but don't recall the specifics.

.

[tom s]

Hilift IS a diff company!Tom

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yep,

And I wouldn't mind trying a set of the Crane's sometime. I always liked Crane products back before they disappeared for a while.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If it weren't for the steep price, it would be 'worth' trying them. But if you run into similar issues as some find with other brands, than it would be wasteful. It's pretty hard to justify 2x the 'usual' cost, unless of course they were guaranteed to work flawlessly.

.

Summit has the Crane hydraulic rollers for only $792.25

(Still that's just $300 more than the Comp 857's which seem to be the "lifter of doom". Would cost more than $300 to rectify the problems caused by failure as in post #1 .)

[HWYSTR455]

Not sure what's going on at Crane, but they don't list half the grinds they used to, as well as some other parts. But i used to use Crane as a go-to for cams & lifters back in the day.

Just to touch another point about 'tickers', some try to set idle speeds way to low, like 550-650 rpm, and due to low oil psi at those idle speeds, they get tickers. You can't use OE specs on a non-OE setup, period.


.

[Dragncar]

Hyd rollers ? What are some examples of trouble free street miles on them. How long are they good for ? If I build this engine I am gathering parts for and want to go on a old school long trip do I have to worry about a lifter taking out my engine ?
Might be better off to get a custom SFT and run it with good oil.
Can I get a few examples of trouble free mileage ?
I believe my 1991 Chevy truck V6 came from the factory with a hyd roller cam. Never had a issue with it.

[Skip Fix]

I know Dave Sober(Torqjunki) took a set of Comps early ones apart that had all kinds of crap on the inside.

[KEN CROCIE]

Crane Cams has been purchased by Comp Cams. You can't necessarily count on your brand name favorites.

[HWYSTR455]

Thanks Ken, I knew something like that happened.


Dragncar- I've seen at least 2 instances of the Morels go over 100k miles on medium-type performance builds, and I have that Olds that has over 30k on it with Morels. (which uses Pontiac type lifters).

I know of a couple folks around here that run the Morels, not Pontiacs, but they I know have driven on them for a number of years, not sure of the total miles, but certainly the two that come to mind drive them a lot, and must be at least 30-50k miles. I will ask when I get a chance exactly how many miles.

As stated previously, you can't go by new cars as an example, due to the level of performance they're built from the factory, and the cam profiles they uses, not an apples-to-apples thing.

I will have somewhat of an example by next summer, I plan on driving my car everywhere, so once it's shaken out, I will do weekend and week long trips with it. I will give feedback then.

Solid roller is a different story, I've had 2 high mile examples, one was 225k+, the other @90k miles, neither had issues. The 225k one I did a top end freshen, valve job, seals etc, and it pitched a rod at 225K. One was Lunati solid roller and the other Crower HIPPOs.

If I have trouble with this set of Morels I'm installing this week, I will go back to solid rollers.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Hyd rollers ? What are some examples of trouble free street miles on them. How long are they good for ? If I build this engine I am gathering parts for and want to go on a old school long trip do I have to worry about a lifter taking out my engine ?
Might be better off to get a custom SFT and run it with good oil.
Can I get a few examples of trouble free mileage ?
I believe my 1991 Chevy truck V6 came from the factory with a hyd roller cam. Never had a issue with it.

For sure it's hard to beat flat tappet cam reliability. I have a ton of roller examples, I'll give a few. I've only had one hydraulic roller failure myself, in my 454, and I blame that on AFR for custom specifying the camshaft and then sending the heads with solid springs that had 275 lbs. seat pressure. Even still it ran for about 5,000 miles before it ate a lifter.

After setting that one up correctly with 150 lbs. seat pressure, and a new set of Comp lifters, it's been together for about 15-16 years now, never had a valve cover off since and runs perfect.

I had several LS engines with factory rollers. One was my wifes daily, and at 60k miles it got a custom Crane cam in it and a set of double springs, pushrods etc.. but I reused the original lifters. I spun that to 6700 regularly and my wife continued to put another 70k miles on that engine and still ran perfect when sold.

A 455 I put together for my father about 15 years ago, also had Comp hydraulic rollers in it. That one ran perfect for about 5 years and he drove it 2-3 days a week, to work and cruises etc... and the car ran mid 11's. Snapped an oil pump shaft and killed the short block. Cam and lifter cam out perfect. I have no qualms about using them again in a future build.

My sons little fox body is going on 246 or 248,000 miles now (can't remember which) with it's original roller lifters.

Like I've said before, I think the major failures are pretty few and far between for guys like us. Engine builders see it more obviously since they build 100's of engines a year. Quite honestly I don't worry all that much about it. If the valve train is setup properly, correct spring pressures etc.. I don't see why a good set of hydraulic rollers wouldn't give years of faithful service.