#281  
Old 04-26-2017, 10:00 PM
NOT A TA NOT A TA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 178
Default

Well, it's been a couple months since I started testing various procedures and materials we might use to paint the welting. Shortly after I got started I had a heart attack which took a week out of my testing. Had an operation to get a couple stents installed in my heart and then various medical complications after the cardiac procedures slowed me down a bit more but I've been able to test quite a few things and learn what won't work as well as some things that seem to work very well. I'd intended to just test various primers, adhesion promoters, paints, procedures, and other things while I was using them anyway on other projects but the heart attack put me on light duty since I have weight lifting limits and strenuous activity limits. So it's kinda sped up my paint testing since I can't get back to my regular work yet and I'm not the sit around type. I figured rather than test things as I had them mixed for other projects (like I'd planned) I'd just do some testing on the welting since I have time and am limited on what I can do.

Since these are for the early TA crowd I went and bought some Lucy Blue base coat for the test in pics below since it seemed fitting and there's been discussion of the difficulty of molding the welting in blue since there's so many variations that occur depending on materials used repainting the car. This post will give you an idea of what and how I'm testing.

I'm doing the tests on 4 different variations of welting. The Cameo and Lucy Blue new style welting James has been working on as well as the silver welting that's been readily available and the black welting with the adhesive strip that's been around also. I had the silver and black stuff in stock but don't really like either brand. The black doesn't look correct or hold paint as well and the silver has a lot of distorted edges that can't be repaired that appear to be due to the packaging and storage. Also the silver is shaped in such a way that it doesn't quite lay the way you want it to against the body because of the molding.

Initially I'm tested to see what effects certain chemicals have on the new products James is working with. How well certain paints will hold and allow flex for installation. And then some long term testing to see how well the welting and paints hold up under various conditions like the extreme UV sunlight here in South Florida that can easily sunburn many products and paint finishes.

For my tests I record the procedure and materials used on each individual piece. In some cases it becomes obvious that certain products just will not work but I finish applications and keep records anyway. You can see in pics below that some pieces have big pieces of paint and primers that peeled off easily. I have 60 individual test pieces so far.

I'm only going to comment on what works/doesn't on the welting James had made. I don't like the other brands of welting and feel the additional expense for the more correct looking, better fitting, and higher quality welting is worth the additional expense. If someone has a particular question relating to the other brands and painting them just send me a PM and I'll be happy to answer any questions I can.

So for painting the new welting here are some things I've learned so far: I will come back and add more info to this post as time goes by.

DO NOT use generic cleaner such as Advantage ADV-98 on the welting. A lot of us use this type of cleaner sold in 5 gallon containers as a replacement for the lacquer thinner we used cleaning paint guns etc. in days gone by and for general paint cleaning/prep work. The cleaner is absorbed by the welting and will deform the material. If it's painted after absorbing the cleaner I'd expect the paint to lift.

DO USE wax & grease remover before any prep or paint. I've been using Klean-strip Prep All in my testing so far with no adverse affects. I've tested without using W&G remover as well as various procedures using W&G remover.

DO NOT use high build primers. I have not found any that work so far. Doesn't matter what procedures or adhesion promoters are used.

DO NOT use epoxy primers. Again haven't found any that hold up yet.

DO scuff (thoroughly and carefully) welting with 3M Ultra Fine Scotch-Brite to promote adhesion. Best procedure seems to be thoroughly wipe welting with W&G remover "WET" and dry with separate rag. Then scuff with the Scotch-Brite, then wipe with W&G remover again WET and dry with separate rag.

DO USE adhesion promoter for plastics. I have tested the 3M and SEM brands and favor the SEM brand for the welting.

DO USE acrylic Urethane Single stage paint. Best procedure I've found so far is wipe with W&G remover, scuff welting with 3M Ultra Fine Scotch-Brite carefully and thoroughly (take your time to be sure you don't miss any little areas). Then clean with W&G remover again. Use a wet rag and dry rag for W&G application/removal. Then just before any adhesion promoter or paint is applied use a tack rag to pick up any lint or dust. Use SEM adhesion promoter (follow directions). Tack rag lightly again. Then spray your paint. One light coat followed by 2 wet coats allowing flash time between seems to work well.

DO USE acrylic Urethane BC/CC or just CC. Follow same instructions for single stage above but add a light tack rag step between BC and CC. Using just a clear coat on the welting gives it a nice glossy look like the paint on the car. The welting is kinda "flat" appearing so if you want the welting to have the same gloss as the car/flares etc. of a BC/CC paint job you can just use a CC on the welting.

I have not tested any sealers yet so no results available but I've got some PPG K-36 (higher end) that I'll be testing pretty soon.

I wanted to sort through some of the primers I thought would probably fail first to cut down on the number of test samples required for each type of paint. Since most current restorations/builds are using urethane paint products and I knew from previous experience that I could expect pretty good results on pieces without primer using urethane I went ahead and used the single stage and BC/CC urethane paints for initial tests. Having used Lacquers and Enamels in the past I'm pretty familiar with what worked with them and the flex agents that helped etc. They're a lot more prone to cracking and chipping particularly if too thick of paint is applied which was common in the past.

A lot of older TA restorations and repaints received too much lacquer and/or enamel paint on welting which caused the cracking IMO. This was back when it was common for DIY guys to load on the single stage paint then sand and buff it down till they got rid of the heavy orange peel and had a nice finish. Problem was, that they didn't/couldn't remove all that thick paint from the welting. The thick paint and welting expanding/contracting at slightly different rates over the years caused the chipping/cracking. If the paint wasn't so thick it could more closely match the rate of expansion/contraction of the welting. Also if the welting was repainted without stripping old repaints off first it cracked even easier. I've seen some wheel flares and front spoilers with 3-4 different paint jobs on them, of course the paint on the original welting was cracking badly.

I tested single stage Acrylic Lacquer and it didn't work well so I wouldn't recommend trying it . It could be used if you installed the welting on the flares etc. before painting. However it doesn't flex enough once it dries and will crack/lift where the welting has to wrap tight and be stapled at the tip of wheel flares if you paint the welting and then install it..

Single stage Acrylic Enamel with a flex agent works well using the following procedure. Wipe/dry with wax & grease remover, scuff with 3M gray Scotch-Brite, wipe/dry with wax & grease remover again, apply SEM adhesion promoter (2 light coats), apply 2 wet coats (no more) Acrylic Enamel with flex agent. It will remain flexible enough to install for at least a couple weeks but I'd install it after a couple days of curing for best results.

I know there's SPI fanbois on most forums now. I haven't ever used any of their products (no opinion) and so don't have them available to test. I buy my paint supplies from a few local commercial paint product distributors and although not as cheap as SPI they come from from brick and mortar stores that can deliver products within minutes and provide services you just can't get online. DIY guys are in a different situation where time isn't as important and they have a lot less variety of products to purchase/keep in stock just to work on their one car. Most of the products I've been testing come from PPG, Trans Star, 3M, SEM, Klean Strip, Advantage, and Mar-Hyde. If anyone wants me to test some of the SPI products I'd be glad to if they can get me some samples. I'm not going to go buy them though.

Summary:
Acrylic urethane single stage or BC/CC is the preferred paint to use combined with SEM adhesion promoter. No primers, just clean, scuff, clean, adhesion promoter, and paint.
If the welting color matches good for your car and you want a higher gloss just put an acrylic urethane gloss clear coat on it.
If your car has a modern BC/CC paint with high gloss I recommend using a gloss clear coat on the welting.
If the Lucy Blue welting is too dark for your car you should probably paint the Cameo welting with your Lucy blue mix or you may end up still being too dark.
If the Lucy Blue welting is a shade light for your car the application of a gloss clear coat may darken it up a little bit for a closer match. How high quality the CC is may make a difference in shade change.
If your car is not one of the colors the welting is being made in you should use the Cameo welting to paint or risk being too dark if you paint the Lucy Blue welting (unless it's a very dark color or black).
Let the paint cure for a couple days before installing the welting on the flares etc. The urethane paint will stay plenty flexible and can still be installed weeks later with no problems if necessary.
It might be obvious but don't start bending and twisting the welting any more than necessary to install it on the flares, why risk it? If you want to see how much you can flex the paints, it do it on some of your cut offs.
I'd really like to see this new welting made in a light gray color specifically to be used for painting. A light gray color similar to common primers/sealers would allow the painted welting to have the same shade as the car body/ flares etc. when painted.

Here's the welting I tested so far. Nothing has been done to the ones in this pic.



Here's a pic of the Cameo and Lucy Blue welting with only a pretty high quality clear (PPG 2021) on the left pieces and no clear on the right.



Here's some random pics taken during testing. You can see that there were a lot of failed pieces already in the Lucy Blue section. That's because of the primers being tested not the paint itself. The primers were starting to crack and peel before the blue was even shot on them. The red paint is single stage Urethane and the Lucy Blue is BC/CC Urethane, both paints are PPG. Every piece has been done with different products or procedures. I also have control group pieces that are not touched by any chemicals and are (or are not) exposed to direct sunlight etc.so I can compare after 6 months, a year, or whatever.







In this last pic the white is DPLF epoxy primer that works well on Endura bumpers but doesn't work at all for welting. The silver is a PPG Acrylic Lacquer that I use for early 2nd gen grills, name is Lotus Silver Frost and also doesn't work well. Red is PPG Delstar Acrylic Enamel with a flex agent in it which works well.




__________________
John Paige
Lab-14.com

Last edited by NOT A TA; 04-26-2017 at 10:55 PM.
  #282  
Old 04-26-2017, 11:08 PM
Transamric's Avatar
Transamric Transamric is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western WA.
Posts: 2,590
Default

Not that you haven't done enough work already, but how about following up on this with a few tips on what gun you recommend and what pressures & thinning you used.

  #283  
Old 04-27-2017, 07:33 AM
FunctionalShaker FunctionalShaker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: A Flyover State
Posts: 2,558
Default

Wow, quite the report! Thanks for the time and effort you put in. Best wishes on a full recovery.

  #284  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:43 AM
wizard61 wizard61 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stilwell, Kansas
Posts: 387
Default

John,

Nicely done! I am sure it will be much appreciated and go a long way to answering many of the questions regarding custom and low production colors.

Thanks,

James

  #285  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:00 AM
NOT A TA NOT A TA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transamric View Post
Not that you haven't done enough work already, but how about following up on this with a few tips on what gun you recommend and what pressures & thinning you used.
For the high build primers I used a cheap Harbor freight gun with a 1.5 tip.
For epoxy primers I used a cheap Harbor freight gun with a 1.4 tip.
For base coat, clear coat, Acrylic Lacquer, and Acrylic Enamel I used a Sata Jet 4000 with a 1.3 tip. There's a bunch of companies that sell nice guns like the SATA.

I use adjustable pressure valves with gauges on my guns but don't look at the numbers on the gauge. I just go by adjusting the spray pattern, paint volume, and pressure based on whatever it is I'm painting. In the case of these small sample pieces narrowing the spray pattern way down and reducing paint volume way down allows me to turn the pressure way down so I can paint without blowing the pieces around.

The advantage of using a higher quality gun like the Sata for top coats is really noticeable when you want to turn everything way down to shoot small things. The cheap guns don't perform as well IMO when you try to turn down to a very small pattern and use real low pressure. They don't atomize the paint as well. Same thing with the "jamb guns" I have. While they're small and easier to use in tight spots, I can't turn them down as low and get the same finish results on small items like I can with a gun like the Sata. When painting something like the welting the finish has to be nice because you only get one shot at it and can't really sand & buff it to get rid of orange peel.

Temps here in south FL are pretty consistent day to day and all the samples were shot between 78-82 degrees using moderate temp thinners. PPG DTR 601 for enamel and PPG DT 885 for the acrylic Urethanes. Recommended ratios were used for everything other than just a splash of extra reducer used in the PPG 2021 clear coat formulation. Clear was shot with a little higher pressure and with the gun a little farther away from the samples being painted to get a nice finish by kind of misting the samples till they're wet. By doing it that way there's no orange peel.

__________________
John Paige
Lab-14.com
  #286  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:43 PM
NOT A TA NOT A TA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 178
Default

I mentioned back in a previous post I thought that painting the new Lucy Blue welting with Lucy blue paint would come out a shade darker than shooting the Cameo with Lucy Blue. In the pic below the left piece is Lucy blue BC/CC over Lucy Blue welting while the three pieces to the right are Lucy Blue BC/CC over Cameo welting. All of the pieces were sprayed at the same time with the same prep procedures and have cured for about a month. Hopefully in the pic you can see the one on the left is a slightly darker shade than the other three.

They were cleaned with wax and grease remover, scuffed with gray Scotch-Brite, cleaned again with W&G remover, SEM adhesion promoter, then shot with two coats of PPG Deltron Lucerne Blue base coat followed by two wet coats of PPG 2021 Clear coat. I did these bigger pieces to send back to James if he wants some samples to show people how the new welting can be painted.


__________________
John Paige
Lab-14.com

Last edited by NOT A TA; 04-27-2017 at 01:02 PM.
  #287  
Old 04-27-2017, 05:35 PM
GRNMTGOAT's Avatar
GRNMTGOAT GRNMTGOAT is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: central vermont
Posts: 445
Default

Thank you very much John for all your work,it will possibly save quite a few people from tears !! Bruce.

__________________
1970 T/A RA3 #'s match.
  #288  
Old 04-27-2017, 06:42 PM
cdoggy81's Avatar
cdoggy81 cdoggy81 is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 911
Default

John, as usual EXCELLENT work & information. You are a big help to the TA community :]
I hope you are feeling better & doing well these past few weeks!

__________________
************************************************** *******************

73 TA 4 spd #'s match red/white - "STOLEN" AT TERRY SPEAR's SHOP IN Columbia TN ~mid 2014
Last offical pic of the car can been seen here:
http://clubs.hemmings.com/pontiactn/...%20-%20rev.pdf
People have seen it posted FS on Craigs List back in late 2013 early 2014....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
IF YOU HAVE ANY INFO ABOUT IT PLEASE CONTACT ME!!!
  #289  
Old 04-28-2017, 12:15 PM
wizard61 wizard61 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stilwell, Kansas
Posts: 387
Default

I thought I would post a quick update on Buccaneer Red. I only have 25 to 30 sets left and I am not planning on running it again. So anybody who think they might want to use the colored welting for a Buccaneer Red car in the future might want to consider acting sooner rather than later.

Thanks,

James

  #290  
Old 04-29-2017, 08:08 PM
NOT A TA NOT A TA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 178
Default

Checking back in on this thread it occurred to me some people might think screwing welting strips long enough for their parts to plywood and painting them like I did the test samples would be a good way to paint them. It is NOT a good way because the paint will bridge between the welting and wood. I didn't care for my paint tests but you don't want to spray pieces you'll be using that way because you'll get crappy edges. Best to mount them on the edge of something like they will be when installed to get good paint coverage and edges. Then make sure the paint doesn't bridge the edge and dry. I'm going to try and make some fixtures to hold the welting so both edges can be painted without bridging. If they work out I'll post in this thread. Meanwhile here's a couple pics of how to keep the welting from being glued down by the paint bridging.




__________________
John Paige
Lab-14.com
  #291  
Old 06-23-2017, 06:56 PM
GTOLiam's Avatar
GTOLiam GTOLiam is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: MN
Posts: 265
Default

I would like a set of Buccaneer Red and Polar White if you have them. Send me your info and I'll Paypal (F&F) the $$.
Thanks

__________________
"Hammer to fit, paint to match"
  #292  
Old 06-24-2017, 07:15 AM
wizard61 wizard61 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stilwell, Kansas
Posts: 387
Default

Hello GTOLIam,

I do still have a few Buccaneer Red sets, but do not have Polar White. I have Cameo White. A few customers with Polar white Cars have Tried the Cameo sets and have been happy with the look.

Either are $90.00 a set, you can just PM me your PayPal emaial address and I'll send you a PayPal invoice. Thanks for the interest.

James

  #293  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:42 PM
NOT A TA NOT A TA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 178
Default

Paint testing 6 month update.

The samples which had only Urethane clear coat, Urethane base coat/clear coat, Urethane single stage, and Acrylic enamel with a flex agent are all holding up very well. They have been outside 24/7 until the hurricane this week in direct sun most of the day here in very sunny S FL. When I brought them inside so they wouldn't blow away I realized it'd been 6 months so I started flexing them to see if there would be any cracking or other issues. Happy to report the paint's holding up well and there's also no discernible degradation to the unpainted samples just being tested to see if there were any issues from extended UV sun burning. The sun they've seen in the past 6 summer months is probably more than most of our garage kept cars will see in 20 years. So the paint recommendations I made previously stand as stated above for good results. I'll report back after a year has passed as long as I'm still around. Chipped and cracked pieces in pic below had primers that failed the test, don't use any primers.


__________________
John Paige
Lab-14.com
  #294  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:39 AM
wizard61 wizard61 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stilwell, Kansas
Posts: 387
Default

Great testing John,

I have held off making any more colors for a couple of reasons, one being the results of your testing.

Thanks again for your efforts.

James

  #295  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:36 PM
GRNMTGOAT's Avatar
GRNMTGOAT GRNMTGOAT is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: central vermont
Posts: 445
Default

James,I decided to paint my cameo white welting in '70 polar white,here's a comparison photo FYI, Bruce.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0422.jpg
Views:	146
Size:	93.1 KB
ID:	463728  

__________________
1970 T/A RA3 #'s match.
  #296  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:53 PM
GRNMTGOAT's Avatar
GRNMTGOAT GRNMTGOAT is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: central vermont
Posts: 445
Default

Also,used Johns painting tips,I mounted the welting on a wire 'goalpost',seemed to work well. Then a problem,it sat for a few weeks as I was moving house,the paint hardened a bit and a small test piece cracked,so,I warmed it up with a heat gun and it became nicely flexible, I glued it with a thin bead of 3M 5200 marine adhesive/sealer. Seems to have worked OK. Thanks to James and John.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0426.jpg
Views:	139
Size:	96.2 KB
ID:	463730   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0425.jpg
Views:	145
Size:	78.3 KB
ID:	463731  

__________________
1970 T/A RA3 #'s match.
  #297  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:43 PM
72projectbird's Avatar
72projectbird 72projectbird is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: N.E Massachusetts
Posts: 2,003
Default

Just thought I'd stop in and say the welting looks and fits great!

Thanks for offering such a great product!

__________________
"Those poor souls have made the fatal mistake of surrounding us. Now we can fire in any direction"

1970 Trans Am RAIII 4 speed
1971 Trans Am 5.3 LM7
1977 Trans Am W72 Y82
1987 Grand National
  #298  
Old 10-24-2017, 04:48 PM
70TA-RAIII 70TA-RAIII is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Indiana/Florida
Posts: 133
Default

Is any of this still available? I'd like to get the Cameo White welting if available.

Thanks, John

  #299  
Old 10-25-2017, 03:29 AM
wizard61 wizard61 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stilwell, Kansas
Posts: 387
Default

Hello John,

I replied to your PM. Yes I still have Cameo White available. PM me your PayPal email address and I will send you an invoice. Once payed, I will ship you a set. If you want to send me payment in the mail, please enclose $90.00 + 7.15 shipping to the address listed below. Please include your ship to address.

Thanks,

James Andrews
C/o Citation Industries
900 Blake Street
Edwardsville, Kansas 66111-3820

  #300  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:19 PM
notime's Avatar
notime notime is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: canal fulton ohio
Posts: 883
Default

Any black available for the later models?

__________________
WWW.SUPERCARCREATIONS.COM
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:57 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017