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Old 10-15-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tom s View Post
The Shaver hyd rollers are made in SoCal.They are EZ to tell as the body looks like a solid roller.All others have a body that comes past the pin.I have been told the best most consistent hyd roller lifters are Crane.I think they are up around $900.If you go on Speed Talk pretty much every engine brand has had some lifter failures both solid and hyd rollers.I have a new engine going on the pump this friday with a set of the Shaver lifters.I hope my good luck with them continues.Tom
Tom, what do you mean by "Shaver lifers"? Are these hydraulic rollers?

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Old 10-15-2019, 10:35 AM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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FYI, Crower lifters for our Pontiacs are assembled in their facility slightly north of San Diego, from components manufactured in-house or from US sources such as the bearing needles. I have been through the plant and watched the process myself. Not saying there will never be a failure or a problem, but your odds are likely better than having them machined from Chinese steel and assembled by children in China with minimal quality control. Unfortunately, you pay your money and take your chances. I try to stack the deck in my favor. Works most of the time. Adequate seat spring pressure is an important factor in needle bearing and roller life too. I like to start with about 20% more seat pressure than the camshaft manufacturer recommends as a general rule. The springs will lose 10-12% quickly during break-in. That leaves 8-10% safety factor once on the road or off the dyno.

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Old 10-15-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rohrt View Post
I thought the consensus from the last 20 some page thread was the newer Comp Hyd rollers were good.
Comp has had several different versions over the years. The latest made by Shaver have gotten good reviews here. It’s also been stated when they don’t have the Shavers on the shelf, they sell the Morels (857-16M) in their place.

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Old 10-15-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
FYI, Crower lifters for our Pontiacs are assembled in their facility slightly north of San Diego, from components manufactured in-house or from US sources such as the bearing needles. I have been through the plant and watched the process myself. Not saying there will never be a failure or a problem, but your odds are likely better than having them machined from Chinese steel and assembled by children in China with minimal quality control. Unfortunately, you pay your money and take your chances. I try to stack the deck in my favor. Works most of the time. Adequate seat spring pressure is an important factor in needle bearing and roller life too. I like to start with about 20% more seat pressure than the camshaft manufacturer recommends as a general rule. The springs will lose 10-12% quickly during break-in. That leaves 8-10% safety factor once on the road or off the dyno.
Thanks for the info. I'm a firm believer in stacking the deck in my favor as well and every decision I make when building a motor comes with a ton of research first as things change in the market. We all like holding onto our money, but I would prefer to spend more money for a quality product if necessary than to be back in the motor again, but spending more money does not necessarily mean it's a better part, hence the thorough research and a few words to the engine gods... lol I also took the same approach on the springs to ensure that wasn't an issue, going to pull and test a few of them but I'm seriously doubting that's the issue and caused this failure.

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Old 10-15-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by torqhead View Post
but I would prefer to spend more money for a quality product if necessary than to be back in the motor again, .
It's been a while back that I was reading some Q&A stuff on Comp's web site. Someone asked about life expectancy and/or how often lifters needed inspected. Poster did not say what the application was other than needle bearing roller lifters. The Comp response went somthing like....Inspect at the end of every season and inspect/rebuild/replace after two or three seasons.

Made me wonder how that would translate to a hot street application.

Clay

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Old 10-15-2019, 11:31 AM
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It's been a while back that I was reading some Q&A stuff on Comp's web site. Someone asked about life expectancy and/or how often lifters needed inspected. Poster did not say what the application was other than needle bearing roller lifters. The Comp response went somthing like....Inspect at the end of every season and inspect/rebuild/replace after two or three seasons.

Made me wonder how that would translate to a hot street application.

Clay
Holy crap Clay, that's a bunch of crap if you ask me... I'm sure there are plenty of people that like to pull apart their motor on an annual basis but I'm not one of them!!! Most of us should be able to assemble or get a motor assembled properly and get many years of service without requiring the top to be popped!

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Old 10-15-2019, 11:37 AM
tom s tom s is offline
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The current pontiac hyd roller lifters are made in Torrance CA.I have been to the place.Owned and run by Ron Shaver.They have been providing Comp with lifters for a few years.In the event Comp runs out of the Shavers they sub Morels.There are pics of the old and the Shavers on this site.This thing comes up all the time.I have one engine in use that have the old style lifters(dont know who made them) and have done at least 4 engines with the Shavers,one im driving at this time.I have a new 428 RA V engine going on the pump this Friday that has the Shavers in it.Pretty much EVERY lifter maker has had issues with their hyd roller lifters but many times its from not following the mfg instructions,improper cleaning,using too heavy oil,not enough spring pressures etc.Tom

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Old 10-15-2019, 11:43 AM
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We don't know the circumstances Torqhead on that comment on Comps site, but I would tend to believe that would apply and relate more to spring pressures and the solid roller guys. Especially those that run more than 250 lbs. seat pressure and race every weekend, and usually changing springs frequently.

We had a solid roller on the street, with what is considered a very lifter friendly 240 lbs. seat pressure. These were the Crower bushed rollers, no needles, and had direct pressure oiling on the roller. About as good as a roller lifter gets.

They lasted 4,000 miles on the street before a roller gave up, ate the lobe on the cam. Crower had no explanation.

Just the way these things go sometimes.

I've seen the pin failure you've got there Torqhead on other applications. And as Paul mentioned, they've seen a lot of them as you would expect an engine builder would, and why they don't build their engines with Comp lifters anymore, and haven't used them for quite some time that I'm aware of. Think he prefers Johnsons but would have to ask him on availability. I know they were unavailable several months back.

I've had hydraulic roller lifter failure in another engine here about 15 years ago. They were Comps. Replaced with another set of Comps and it's been fine for the last 15 years, knock on wood.

Have done 2 more hydraulic rollers recently, and one set of lifters I got from Paul C, the other set from Paul K. One was Comp, from Paul K and I believe they were the Shavers, and have the oil band in the correct location for Pontiac. I can't remember what the others were.


Last edited by Formulajones; 10-15-2019 at 11:50 AM.
  #29  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:55 AM
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I had a similar situation as Formulajones. I use PAC 1243 springs rated 240 at 1.900"
I use nothing but Crower roller lifters.

Repeat of my post on the subject from Aug 2017....

I have not used a hydraulic flat tappet cam in over 20 years. Granted not a ton of mileage with their use but since then I have used nothing but solid roller cams on 7 different engine combos in my car, not long ago I had my first lifter 'failure'. While checking the valve lash during a routine check we found one valve would not stay in place, the lash would open up slightly after short use. We removed the intake and found one Crower solid roller lifter where the wheel was ground flat enough it had got into the lifter body and it damaged the cam. We checked the valve spring pressure and all was fine, that was not the issue. Sent the lifters to Crower and had them rebuilt and converted to bushings instead of needle bearings.
They had no clue as to why it failed. They had 5200 miles on them and the oil does not get dirty ( Red Line synthetic) and we keep tabs on the lash, which is .022". Also we monitor the valve springs with a LSM brand on the head pressure checker. The lifters are the Crower Cutaway Severe-Duty with/HIPPO option. Cost to rebuild to the Enduramax option includes new bearings, bushing and pin and it was $418.25 total. But I also had to buy a new pair due to the lifter body damage, that was separate. Isky’s ads for their “bushing type” EZ-Roll solid roller lifters say they provide 350% higher load rating than comparable needle type solid roller lifters. These Crower units should be similar.

Keep in mind for street use on solid roller lifters, not brand specific....

Inadequate oiling, excessive spring pressures and the hammering effect associated with VALVE LASH play a significant part in the failure of the roller, needle bearings and axle. BUT very important, the lack of adequate valve spring pressure to control the valves is a potential KILLER.


.

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Last edited by Steve C.; 10-15-2019 at 12:01 PM.
  #30  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:48 PM
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Hylift/Johnson.



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Originally Posted by torqhead View Post
They're hydraulic and the second version of the comp cams rollers. Needless to say there's been a number of threads on this topic. I had the first version of comp''s hydraulic rollers in my 455 that failed, collapsed, after 15,000 miles. At the time a few years ago it appeared the best solution was to use the new version of comp's and those are in my 455 currently. I'm going to pop the top to my motor this winter now and have a look as I'm a bit stressed about this now!



Paul, what are you using now for hydraulic rollers?



Yep, ruined a new cam (Harold's grind) I had on the shelf, really upset this happened!



These sure look like the first original design comp cam was delivering, wondering if they are actually different or if they're the same back end manufacturer?

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  #31  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gtofreek View Post
Hylift/Johnson.
Thanks Paul!

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Old 10-15-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by torqhead View Post
Thanks Paul!
I'm going with John / Hylift short travel based on what Paul has said about them and guys at Butler said these are the "only" ones he would recommend based on the cam that I was using. My block is IAII which also should theoretically eliminate lifter bore / oil band placement issue.

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Old 10-15-2019, 01:38 PM
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Something to confirm. I have been told that the lifter bore feed hole in the IA2 block is located higher up than in a factory block. Inquire about the potential of the lifters not having their oil band exposed to the lifter bore feed holes 100 percent of the time under certain circumstances. I know the base circle of the cam has a impact as does the lifter oil band location and/or width. This regarding the use of solid roller lifters.



.

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Old 10-15-2019, 04:04 PM
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I forgot to note my comment above has more to do with oil flow to the Hi-pressure feed hole direct to the needle bearings from within the oil band. Not the edge orifice oiling.


.

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  #35  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gtofreek View Post
Hylift/Johnson.
Paul, what is the part number (again, for others here) for their Pontiac HR lifters.
These ARE made specifically for a Pontiac engine, even though the oil passage for the lifter body oil hole location needs to be ground into the block?
I plan to use these...some day.
Hylift-Johnson is American made, as well.
Paul, are the Hylift lifters needle bearing type?

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  #36  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:16 PM
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My entire valvetrain including timing chain and pushrods are Lunati Voodoo. I got Paul to order the cam and then when I received it I called Lunati and asked about seat pressure etc. I passed that on to Butler when they were doing my heads. When my engine builder went to assemble the engine the only way he could get good valve tip contact pattern was to use BBC rockers. I started out with Lunati voodoo pontiac rockers. They were a no go. I changed ratios back to 1.5, no go. Tried crane gold, no go. On my Machinist’s recommendation I got the Lunati voodoo for BBC and they were perfect. He said he had seen this two other time over the last 20 years. My engine ran flawlessly on the stand and I can only hope it gives me good service on the road. I have 9600 bucks in it all together. If the lifters fail and wipe out a lobe I guess I will get a higher end set but my machinist said they looked to be good quality and he did the oil band mod so fingers crossed

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Old 10-15-2019, 09:27 PM
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"...These ARE made specifically for a Pontiac engine, even though the oil passage for the lifter body oil hole location needs to be ground into the block?..."


It's been posted that most all "Pontiac" Roller lifters are Chevy lifters, with Pontiac link bars. The exception is the CC lifters which are made by Shaver. If anybody else makes a roller lifter with the Pontiac oil band location, I've never seen it mentioned.

  #38  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gtofreek View Post
We've seen several Comp roller failures just like this. That's why we won't use them.
X2

Can you say China...

Comp makes some decent stuff, lifters aren’t one of them IMO.

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  #39  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:35 PM
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"...Comp makes some decent stuff, lifters aren’t one of them IMO..."


I've read here that the "Pontiac" HR lifters Comp now sells are made either by Morel or Shaver. Assuming Comp does not "make" lifters. So, are you saying that neither the Morel nor the Shaver lifters are even "decent" ?

Just noticed that SD has ONLY Comp HR lifters in their online cat. Have heard lots of good things about SD here, for years. Reckin he knows that those lifters aren't decent ?

http://www.sdperformance.com/listPro...?categoryID=12


Last edited by ponyakr; 10-15-2019 at 10:42 PM.
  #40  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:46 PM
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Calvin!i have been in the building the Shavers are made and I have not been to CHINA!And I'm pretty sure morels are not made off shore!Thats one of the issues with the Internet,people can post BS and the world takes it as gospel!Fake news!

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