#1  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:50 AM
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Default short inside new starter solenoid?

hello all. glad i have a car to work on during 'shelter at home'!!!:

putting together a 69 bird.

new engine harness is plugged into firewall and currently only hooked up to starter solenoid. new battery cables installed, positive to solenoid and negative to stud bolt on head. no battery hooked up yet. i touched the leads from my multimeter to the battery ends of my neg and pos battery cables and got a beep. ???

i then touched the leads to the battery cable post on the solenoid and the case of the starter and got a beep. i checked connections and the cable connection is not grounding out.

starter/solenoid is a new hi torque powermaster unit. red wire connected to battery cable post and purple wire to 'S' terminal.

sounds like short inside the starter solenoid. next step is to remove and bench test.

any other ideas?

thanks guys

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Old 03-22-2020, 08:59 AM
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a few pics
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:07 AM
"QUICK-SILVER" "QUICK-SILVER" is offline
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What about the red wire in pic #2?

If it's hooked to the alternator or anything inside the car, that's hot at all times, you could get a beeb doing a continuity test.

Clay

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Old 03-22-2020, 11:27 AM
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thanks QS

i will disconnect the red wire from the solenoid and test again

different than my original post, i now have alternator hooked up (powermaster 100 amp single wire), the plug that comes with single wire conversion kit is attached to the harness where you would connect to a voltage regulator, and harness is plugged into firewall boot. Original under dash wiring is in place and has been messed with quite a bit by previous owners. All i have done there is unplug steering column in order to remove it.

will post results today

thanks again

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Old 03-22-2020, 11:34 AM
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Remove the positive lead from the battery. Touch the red meter lead to the battery positive post and the black meter lead to the battery negative post. Get a beep? If so, you've just found that doing continuity tests on live circuits are not very conclusive.

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Old 03-22-2020, 11:43 AM
wbnapier wbnapier is offline
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Redbird, for the wiring of the 1-wire alternator to the engine harness, I just went through this with a factory harness. I rewired everything using a Power Master alt., M&H engine and headlight harness, relays, and the Mad Electric kit. IMO, it is best to customize a little here for improvements and reliability.

Starter, electric fan 1, electric fan 2, high beams, and low beams are all on relays. My alternator power output lead goes to a junction block, of which I have two. Main and accessory.

Do you have a nice color factory wiring diagram to work of off? Isn't your Power Master alternator internally regulated?

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Old 03-22-2020, 11:59 AM
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thanks guys

Bill - battery has never been in the car yet so no power.

WB - the alternator is internally regulated. i installed the conversion kit shown in the pics; jumper for alt plug and block where you would normally attach to voltage regulator.

i have used all of these exact parts before on a 68 and all was well - alternator, conversion kit, starter/solenoid and harness.

i do not remember checking continuity though before hooking up battery, maybe this condition existed then too. right now i am afraid to hook up the battery until i understand what is causing the 'short'.
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Old 03-22-2020, 03:39 PM
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update - i unhooked all wires from solenoid. there is no longer continuity from hot post on solenoid to case of starter, so i assume the starter/solenoid is fine.

disconnected wires from alternator and checked for continuity from heavy wire post on back of alternator to ground, no beep so all good there.

touched lead to the wire terminal that connects to back post on alternator, other lead to a ground and got a beep. This is with wires still disconnected from solenoid and single wire adapter disconnected from voltage regulator plug.

the center 2 of the 4 spade connectors on the voltage regulator harness plug also have continuity to ground

looked closer underdash and wires are pretty butchered up. car ran and drove before though. was a 6cyl column shift car

it seems starter/solenoid and alternator are fine and issue is in the underdash wiring? any chance this is normal?

thanks again

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Old 03-27-2020, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbird68 View Post

it seems starter/solenoid and alternator are fine and issue is in the underdash wiring? any chance this is normal?

thanks again
It's hard to identify shorts as opposed to 'normal' readings when you are checking resistance while things are still wired into a larger circuit. Especially when motor/generator windings and such are involved.
For instance, coils and motor windings are a dead shorts to an ohm meter but offer impedance when in use. A capacitor will read 'open' to a meter but will pass an alternating current right through it.
A schematic helps. Study it and look for ways to isolate the part under test.

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Old 03-28-2020, 10:07 AM
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Continuity testing isn’t all that useful for this. I’d be tempted to hook up a fuse between the battery and one of the cables and see what happens. If the fuse doesn’t blow you don’t need to worry about really bad things happening.

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Old 03-28-2020, 10:12 AM
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Another method is to hook a lamp (I like using a headlamp) between the battery and a terminal. If you have a dead short to ground it’ll light up full brightness; if it’s dim it’s not a dead short.

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Old 03-28-2020, 11:51 AM
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For that matter, since you have the meter, you can do the same thing with it that LPete suggested. Take one battery cable off and using the 'amps' setting, you can hook one lead to the battery post and the other lead to the cable that attaches to that post. Read the current draw.

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Old 03-28-2020, 12:25 PM
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But MOST meters have a 10A fuse internally on the AMPS setting. Any more will pop the fuse, requiring replacement of the fuse if you can find it.

I use an old under-dash ammeter with alligator clips on the end of some #12 wire for this purpose.

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  #14  
Old 03-29-2020, 12:27 PM
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great ideas !

i will try the fuse trick in line with a battery cable first, nice and simple.

will report back

thank you

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Old 03-29-2020, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon View Post
But MOST meters have a 10A fuse internally on the AMPS setting. Any more will pop the fuse, requiring replacement of the fuse if you can find it..

True... but I would expect if he had a 10 amp draw, he should get a pretty good little spark when he takes the battery cable off.

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  #16  
Old 03-30-2020, 10:23 AM
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i tried the fuse test and all good. connected a fuse inline between the neg cable and the battery post and it did not blow.

so i hooked up the rest of the engine harness and all seems well. tested continuity again between the 2 battery cables and this time it did not beep. when placing spring clamp on battery post there was not a spark. can't say i fully understand the reasoning behind all this but it seems fine now.

moment of truth is coming soon.....need to reinstall steering column and hook up some new gauges then it is time to turn the key

thanks you to everyone for all of the help!

my son helped me install/time distributor yesterday. it was a good day
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Old 03-30-2020, 02:09 PM
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Looks like a good project. Love the '68 'blackbird' in the background. The second gen looks real nice too.
The point of all that was to determine if current is flowing from the battery when nothing is turned on. That would indicate a 'short circuit'. That is, current is flowing right to ground through a bare wire or something as opposed to flowing through a designed circuit such as headlights, battery or you name it.
Personally, I recommend when doing this type of troubleshooting that if you have a meter, use it. No need to rig up anything. That way, you can actually read in amperes what the current draw is. The light bulb, fuse, etc. DO work but I generally go to my meter. Why?...Because I have one.

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Last edited by Greg Reid; 03-30-2020 at 02:21 PM.
  #18  
Old 03-30-2020, 04:20 PM
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thanks Greg
i finished blackbird 2 years ago, was a full not/bolt/wire resto. runs well but took long time. trying to make better time on the 69, cloning a TA. tore it apart 1 year ago, hopefully get it running and back to paint shop soon, then back to me for interior.
Glad the electrical is working, i was hoping to avoid replacing the underdash harness and going forward right now i do not plan to. car ran and drove before. i am eliminating AC and going to a console shift instead of original column shift so hopefully i can work through that.

wouldn't be as much fun if i already had it figured out.

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Old 03-30-2020, 04:21 PM
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thanks Greg
i finished blackbird 2 years ago, was a full not/bolt/wire resto. runs well but took long time. trying to make better time on the 69, cloning a TA. tore it apart 1 year ago, hopefully get it running and back to paint shop soon, then back to me for interior.
Glad the electrical is working, i was hoping to avoid replacing the underdash harness and going forward right now i do not plan to. car ran and drove before. i am eliminating AC and going to a console shift instead of original column shift so hopefully i can work through that.

wouldn't be as much fun if i already had it figured out.

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